Why is folding so hard?

[chinz]

I'm sure that everyone here has thought "I should call and fold if X hits and he bets" or "I should bet-fold in this spot" and then ended up calling anyway... Why does that happen all the time?

Lately I've been able to avoid those idiot situations a lot. However, today I made one of those idiot calls again:

weaktight | Hand | K8o - $0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem

My preflop defend is a bit loose but I guess it's OK. Flop call is of course very standard. He had been potting all the time when he bets (he was fish, but not maniac or even too aggro) so I decided to call the turn too and fold if he shoves the river, because it doesn't make any sense for him to bluff there with those stack sizes.

Ok, then I proceed to call and the river is the card that hits just about the only semibluffing hand in his range, so I do as I planne... Oh wait, I called?!

The good thing is, that I have learned to quit as soon as I notice that I make idiot plays like this and that has improved my winrate a lot. However, it would be nice to avoid making those bad crying calls in the first place. Has anyone else struggled with the same problem? If so, have you found any method to avoid making those bad plays? Should I try writing down "fold to shove on river" on paper or something?

[Vantek]

The reason is inherent bias/irrationality/error in human psychology.

I can't find a link right now, but IIRC it's well documented that people are willing to take disproportionately large risks to avoid a certain loss. It could have something to do with that. If you fold, you will certainly have "lost" the hand, the pot, and everything you put in it. As long as there's a tiny bit of chance that you're good (and there always is unless you know your opponent's cards), people are willing to take an enormous risk to give yourself the chance of avoiding losing.

Then there's some curiosity thing. You know, I can be dying to know what someone had even if I weren't involved in the hand, let alone when I were. While playing, you're just clicking buttons on the screen or splashing pieces of plastic around, it does not feel like you lose a lot when you just click or splash another one.

Then again, none of what I said feels like a good explanation. I feel the main reason is the same that makes people want to call if someone open shoves pre, and none of what I said really applies to that (or does it?). For some reason, a small prospect of winning big outweighs a large prospect of losing big. I can't quite put my finger on why.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by Vantek

Raise or fold pre, christ. Calling with K8o OOP is so bad, especially against a fish.

Are you serious? This is HU, most of the people are opening 85-100% of buttons. There's many winning regulars (at all stakes) who are defending the BB with over 40% range, and K8o is about top 30%.

Defending with K8o is certainly not something awful, but it is a bit light. Even the K high has a lot of value in HU.

Your post was good otherwise, but that first paragraph was tilting me a lot. Some (good) looser players defend with just about any Kx or Qx... and I don't think they're doing a mistake.




I would hate to 3bet with those stack sizes, because if I do hit the flop there's no way I can fold with those stack sizes and by 3betting I'm making him fold all the hands that I dominate. My 3bet stat is 14.2% anyway, so I am more often raising these marginal hands than flatcalling, but I like to mix it up.

[nawhead]

Originally Posted by chinz

I'm sure that everyone here has thought "I should call and fold if X hits and he bets" or "I should bet-fold in this spot" and then ended up calling anyway... Why does that happen all the time?

Has anyone else struggled with the same problem? If so, have you found any method to avoid making those bad plays? Should I try writing down "fold to shove on river" on paper or something?

I was actually coming here to post almost this same type of question. Had a hand last night where I'm thinking "I gotta call one time, ok but if he shoves river on me, I have to fold. This turn call is so bad anyway." <villain open shoves river> I call out the hand that's most likely to beat me and call anyway. There was almost 0% chance in my mind that he was bluffing or turning some hand into a bluff, but I call. And I'm just stunned. I'll analyze the hand and it's fold all day long, but I can't make the fold in that moment. Another session just ruined.

But I was at the end of a 3 hour session at 4am and my stomach was growling and I had taken some beats very recently. I told myself I should quit like 15 hands earlier but I wanted to run 1 more orbit. This is usually what happens in this scenario. Almost like clockwork. There's just no fold button anymore.

So the general problem for me is that I'm on my C or D game when this happens. I have a lot of notes and reminders I use to keep myself from falling off my game like this. I have session time stops. Hand count # stops. Pre-session meals. Pre-session naps. Just a whole ritual. But still I sometimes get cocky and want to push through.

[Vantek]

This is HU

lololol sorry my bad >< Obviously just forgot that games other than what I play exist. I know jack about HU and you're a much better player than me anyway. I didn't remember whom I was replying to at the time, later I saw your name and thought WTF? That's not something you'd do. But I had already made the post, fallen into the bias trap, and hey, you were complaining about being a station too :P so I was like, ahh whatever mmm maccaroni with cheese and ketchup + oregano tea. lulz.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by Vantek

lololol sorry my bad >< Obviously just forgot that games other than what I play exist. I know jack about HU and you're a much better player than me anyway. I didn't remember whom I was replying to at the time, later I saw your name and thought WTF? That's not something you'd do. But I had already made the post, fallen into the bias trap, and hey, you were complaining about being a station too :P so I was like, ahh whatever mmm maccaroni with cheese and ketchup + oregano tea. lulz.

Heh, I thought that you didn't necessarily see it was HU.

Anyway, in 6max this would have been a clear fold on the turn obviously. In HU I think I should be either calling to fold to rivershove or shove the turn myself, but never just call in this spot. It's not like calling down with TP is awful play in HU, but I had decided to check-fold the river and I didn't. That's the most important thing, being able to follow your game plan, or whatever it is called.

[Vantek]

Anyway, in 6max this would have been a clear fold preflop obviously.

FYP and yes, yes it would have

I know 100% what you are talking about with the retarded calling thing. Like you *KNOW* there's no way you can call but you just do. Thank god it's by no margin a common occurrence for me, but I have had it happen. Hell, Trikkur did it in one of his vids (IIRC one at a Cake skin called Cardspike, there shouldn't be many of those around), he must have felt like a huge ass but I feel this was one of the most educating moments in his vids. I guess in my case, it typically isn't flat out calling when I know I should fold, I'm too honest for that, but it can sneak in in the form of widening my opponent's range more than I should to justify a call that isn't oh-my-god-awful, but I still shouldn't be making. Or you know, actually it can sneak in in the form of flat out calling when I know I should fold, when I block that path of analysis until it's too late. Let me contemplate what was it is that made me do that.

Hmm. I think I make those donk plays exclusively when I'm getting frustrated. I don't think I ever do it when I'm doing great. It might be that when you're getting frustrated, then on an emotional level, losing more somehow does not add to the frustration that much anymore, not as much as finally winning something would boost your feelings. On an emotional level, you blatantly overgeneralise to "I am losing" or "I am winning". If you are already losing... You will still be losing if you lose this hand. However, if you won this hand... You're not losing anymore, you're winning again. And if I've been winning a lot... You know what, it actually indeed might be on the exact contrary, I will become deathly afraid of losing and not care so much about winning further any more, neglecting marginal spots and wanting to snapfold AK to a tight UTG raise. Yeah, that's how I feel it is. And then people of course only complain when they make the donk plays when they are losing, and never when they make maybe equally donk plays when they are winning, because hey, they were winning.