Failed Continuation Betting on Stars

[Aufty]

I find myself losing a lot of money continuation betting on Pokerstars. For one thing, I get people calling with bottom pair and my cards never seem to hit. Even worse I'll have people re-raising a decent percentage of the time. Sometime I'll pop them back but they usually call that and then I feel like I have to c-bet the reraise.

Then I'm down to where I almost have to call a reraise at that point.

My raises preflop are rarely respected, even if I showdown good hands. I just hate 10NL on stars. Profit is difficult because it's just a big game of bingo. Any suggestions on a different line to take?

[urbansprawler]

Cbet better boards? Why are you complaining about people not folding at 10NL? You should be very happy no one ever folds.

[Aufty]

I'm happy when my cards hit. But then they don't call. What's a good and bad board to c-bet then.

And when someone calls then i just shut down? There have been times I've done that and the board is QT3 and my opponents call and then i check to the river and they show a pair of nines to beat my AK or something like that.

[Vantek]

And when someone calls then i just shut down?

Yes.

Do not bluff at 10 NL. Wait for a hand, then bet bet bet fold when they raise.

People hit flop about 30% of the time.

[nawhead]

I felt like this too at some point. I'd cbet a lot, then I'd get called a lot, I didn't know what to do next. So I stopped cbetting so much. I just got really nitty, only putting money in cause I had a super good hand, hit the flop hard, etc.

But the effect of this is that people don't play back at us anymore. They call one street and fold cause we're always betting the turn since we always have a hand most times. Only the very stubborn and stupid try to look us up. Or we run into monsters. The game becomes a real grind when we hardly ever get paid off and we're ALWAYS running into monsters. Or so we perceive in our mind.

But the reason this happens is because we stopped cbetting. We're not running into monsters more, we're just getting less action from weak hands.

The main focus of a cbet is not to take down the flop, it's to disguise and get action on our big hands. We raise, cbet, villain calls or raises. The pot's big now. We want the pots to be as big as possible when we have a big hand.

Nits have to disguise their big hands by checking with their monster (cause they check so much anyway). This is obviously less profitable. The pot's smaller, it's going to be very hard to get allin vs anybody not holding a monster also.

But cbetting in a vacuum can be still profitable at 5NL-10NL if done in a right frequency. 50-60% works for me. Clean overs K/Q/Jx on 742. Backdoor straight draws, backdoor flush draws. Gutshots. Obviously any straight or flush draw. Also, I turn most small pairs into pure bluffs on A/K hi boards. I'm not trying to improve here, but villain always puts us on AK so it works anyway.

We're looking for some kind of extra equity in case we get called. And we intend to fire again on turn a lot when we hit that backdoor flush/straight draw. And obviously we're firing again when improving on the turn with overcards or hitting our draws.

And to disguise when we hit (like diguising big hands with our cbets), we double barrel likely overcards we might have hit. Bluff that Q turn when we cbet KJ on 972. We still likely have 6 goot outs if called, the river will likely go check/check anyway cause villains don't know how to value bet a 9 on a Q hi board. And villain will think we're straight bluffing when we fire again on kingball river. Or he'll fold angrily and think we 2 barrel with air, which we do, and now we're getting some mad action next time whenever we have a big hand in that spot.

Bad cbet spots are like AJ on Q97 2 flush when we don't have any suit of the 2 flush. QJ on T72 where if we hit our overcard, it might complete some draw for villain or make 2 pair type hands. Or KQ on A92 (this is unlike turning a small pair into a bluff since we might still have a lot of equity in this pot vs hands like T9s, and when hit a K or Q on turn, we can c/c for value against villain semibluffing a draw or thinking he has the best hand).

When we get better, we can cbet more or less depending on villain, not board texture. But board texture is a good way to start.

Originally Posted by Aufty

Even worse I'll have people re-raising a decent percentage of the time. Sometime I'll pop them back but they usually call that and then I feel like I have to c-bet the reraise.

DO NOT DO THIS. Villains are almost never pure bluff raising at 10NL. They will call. Expect to get called. So don't re-raise with air. This is a huge leak. Correct this or fall forever.

[urbansprawler]

Originally Posted by nawhead

The main focus of a cbet is not to take down the flop, it's to disguise and get action on our big hands. We raise, cbet, villain calls or raises. The pot's big now. We want the pots to be as big as possible when we have a big hand.

I completely disagree. The point of a cbet is to get value or take down the pot.

[nawhead]

Originally Posted by urbansprawler

I completely disagree. The point of a cbet is to get value or take down the pot.

NLHE is not about winning a bunch of little pots (maybe if we're looking to be a breakeven player). It's to score that BIG pot. And a cbet is essential to winning the big pot.


Maybe in limit poker, cbets are done primarily to take down the pot.

[urbansprawler]

Originally Posted by nawhead

NLHE is not about winning a bunch of little pots (maybe if we're looking to be a breakeven player). It's to score that BIG pot. And a cbet is essential to winning the big pot.

Wow, this is so wrong. Big pots tend to play themselves. Every 3bb you win in a game of chicken significantly adds to your winrate. Little pots and middle-sized pots are what entire styles are based around; even TAG is based around winning medium-sized pots. When the money is shipped into a 200bb pot, both players typically have strong hands and you gain no equity because you would have done the same in your opponents' shoes. When you pick up a 9.5bb pot with a 6bb pot, that is pretty big.

[Silverthunder]

+1 to Urban Sprawler

I might get flamed for this a bit but what I have been doing recently, is almost never bluffing, even on a cbet. Okay, maybe it is slightly exploitable but I don't plan on playing a ton more hands on this account anyway. But that is not even the reason why I do it. So many of the unknowns are loose passive fish, even some of the semi-regulars are weak tight. These passive players don't value bet their own hands enough so I don't want my cbet to be their value bet. If I don't bet, they will often check behind with a made hand& I can get a free card or 2, outdraw them, and value bet when I hit. Essentially, once I start the betting wiht my cbet, the passive villains now feel comfortable betting their hands for value. Ie, instead of waiting until the river to vbet a flopped hand, a bluff cbet wakes them up, giving them value and throwin away free cards that we were going to get. I invest the money that I save from no cbet bluff to auto jam pot on made hands.

When you have to tripple barrel full pot to get the villain to lay down QQ on a K high flop, it's just not worth it.

Lasstly, by just checking it down, if they haven't hit anything, you will more often win with your superior starting hand, if neither of you have hit anything.

cliff notes: I think cbet bluffing can be negative EV at some microstakes tables, unless done extremely well

[Richy47]

C-betting is incredibly profitable in itself. It is however, essential to understand that doesn't mean you should be c-betting 100% of flops.

Good flops to cbet on are dry A/K/Q high boards which are unlikely to have hit your opponents range and hit your range relatively hard, so flops like A94, K65, etc. Also, paired flops are pretty good for cbetting on.

Bad flops to cbet on are those coordinated, lowish flops such as J98, 965, 643, etc.

Best advice I can give is just experiment yourself and pay attention to the board types and textures which you rarely get called on, and those on which you are frequently getting calls.