NL50: TP with 9To in 3bet pot

[chinz]

weaktight | Hand | 9To - $0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem

Earlier on the match I had shown down only two hands (I think) that I've 3bet and they were AQ and JJ. But I had 3bet around 15% of hands so far, so villain probably knew I was 3betting trash too. He was a decent NL50 player, probably a winning regular. His VPIPs were 70&45 and fold to 3bet about 70% with little less than 100 hands sample. He had been calling down light in few spots, but nothing totally out of ordinary.

I think this is somewhat standard, but situations like this come a lot and I am not too sure about my turn play. Should I bet every street, or would checking back the turn be better? I kind of feel stupid for even asking this...but situations like this just come much more than those "once in every 10k hand" spots, which most of HH posts are.

Flop
I always cbet a flop like this in 3bet pots, so I do it too with weak TP.

Turn
His range still has AQ, AJ and 77-... so I am betting this for value (probably folding to a shove, because he hadn't done any crazy bluffs).

River
Unless he slowplayed AA, I almost certainly have the best hand now. I have blocker to TT and JJ-KK he would probably 4bet preflop.

I know there is very little value in shove here, but I am almost never beat and I do not want to showdown my hand for free, because I want him to think that my 3betting range is very tight. You also do sometimes see people calling you down here with A high or 66, so it's not like you can't get called by worse.


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My betsizing is standard for 3bet pots, I am getting the money in anyway and that smallish turn bet sometimes induces people to do crazy stuff...

[given1982]

I think it's pretty weird to bet 56% of pot, then 48%, then 62%, but given the 3bet-calling range and 4betting range you've assigned him, bet/bet/bet seems super standard. You asked about "checking back" the turn, but you're OOP. I don't really see the alternative to your line--c/c turn and c/f river?

[chinz]

Originally Posted by given1982

You asked about "checking back" the turn, but you're OOP. I don't really see the alternative to your line--c/c turn and c/f river?

I don't know what was I thinking when I said "checking back"... I meant c/c obviously. If I decided to check-call that turn, I'd have to fold on a blanco turn (not on that 8 though) if he bets, you're right about that.

Thanks anyway for confirming that I played it fine.

I think it's pretty weird to bet 56% of pot, then 48%, then 62%, but given the 3bet-calling range and 4betting range you've assigned him, bet/bet/bet seems super standard.

Most of the good highstakes HU players (pr1nnyraid, INTERNET POKERS, Alcohol4life [=gman06] etc...) seem to use similar betsizing in 3bet pots. Betting about 0.5x the pot every street and getting the stacks in. We are getting the stacks in anyway and this way we make it "easier" for opponents (especially bad ones) to call us down. If you have watched pr1nny's videos, he is often referring to this as "putting them on a payment plan". People play so straightforward in 3bet pots that cbetting more would be worthless and obviously you want to bet the same amount with made hands.

Anything but that betsize on the turn would either mean overbet-shoving or leave me with a very awkward betsize on the river. I could have made it like $14, but I wanted to make it easier for worse hands to call.

If you disagree with my betsizing, I'd like to know how you play this. Cbet bigger and shove the turn? You'd have to bet really big to not make the turn bet a massive overshove.


EDIT:
Those pot sizes are bugging a little on weaktight (with iPoker HHs)... It "adds" blinds to everything. I actually 3bet to $5.00, cbet 60% on the flop, 50% on the turn and 63% on river.

[given1982]

Originally Posted by chinz

If you disagree with my betsizing, I'd like to know how you play this.

I'd bet 5.5 on the flop. That would make a turn pot size of 21.75. Then I'd bet 11 on the turn just like you did. Then the river pot would be 43.75, into which I'd shove, just like you did--it would be a 28.30 shove instead of a 27.80 shove.

I just didn't like the fact that you oscillated above and below 1/2 pot.

[no eff eks]

I think this hand is pretty standard, but a lot of the concepts you talk about in your post are kinda foreign to me...

First, you seem obsessed with how the villain views your 3bet range. Stop worrying about it so much. You've actually got a pretty tight 3b% at 15% and a decent 50nl HU player will be paying attention to your 3bet frequency a lot more than what you show down. The fact that you have shown down a couple quality hands that you'd 3bet wouldn't make me inclined to think that you're not 3betting light as well.

Second, your bet sizing is pretty good on each street imo... but when you say this is your "standard bet sizing for 3bet pots" it sounds like you're losing a lot of EV in different kinds of 3bet situations. For one thing you've really got to check dry flops like this sometimes -- maybe not against this opponent, but against lots of people cbetting this kind of board with air is just burning money. For another, your bet sizing shouldn't be standard -- it should be based on lots of factors including how the villain plays, how he views you/your range, and how you view his calling range (preflop and on the flop)....

I really can't think of a reason to check the turn unless you are going to induce a bluff from an aggro villain. Given that this guy sounds like he'd be checking back most of his range on this turn card I'd be betting for value and as a bluff almost always. For that reason I'd probably bet a little bit bigger to get more FE, but you don't need to go over $13 imo.

On the river it's the same kinda thing... you're almost always good and villain is checking back everything but bluffs/monsters, and since it's quite unlikely he's got a monster you need to ship. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a hero call out of AK/AQ or underpairs.

[chinz]

Another question... if the river was something like 4h, and I had hand like JQ (no showdown value), would shoving the river be good? He was playing relatively tight, so 8x is not in his range... so there ain't too much he could call with.

Originally Posted by no eff eks

First, you seem obsessed with how the villain views your 3bet range. Stop worrying about it so much. You've actually got a pretty tight 3b% at 15% and a decent 50nl HU player will be paying attention to your 3bet frequency a lot more than what you show down. The fact that you have shown down a couple quality hands that you'd 3bet wouldn't make me inclined to think that you're not 3betting light as well.

Yes, and as I said I'd like to keep it that way... that's why I didn't want to show down my hand. The way I played, he can't know whether I had quads, 9x or overpair.

Over such a small sample size, my 3betting frequency doesn't necessary tell him that I am 3betting light, but if someone is 3betting 15% over bigger sample, then over half of his 3bets are bluffs.

For that reason I'd probably bet a little bit bigger to get more FE, but you don't need to go over $13 imo.

I don't want any FE, I am betting for value and there isn't any better hand than mine that would fold here... All the folding equity I gain is away from hands that I want to call.

[no eff eks]

Shoving blank rivers can't be too bad in a vacuum, so against a tight player it's probably +EV. I'm not running any equity calcs at 6:30am though.

As I said before... he knows you're 3betting light, you don't need to worry about hiding that from him. Even if he knows you're 3betting more than just your value hands your 3bet range is still much much stronger than his SB opening range.

See what I'm trying to say here? It's like when live poker droolers get all psychotic about who's going to table their hand first... it just doesn't matter... and it doesn't matter if he knows you 3bet light one time.

As for my suggestion about betting larger on the turn. I wasn't saying you want FE in this specific pot. I'd be betting a huge part of my preflop 3bet range on the turn, most of which has not improved yet. So most of the time I'll want that added bit of FE, plus you need to be called less often to make the same amount when you are going for value which should nearly make up for the value lost from increased FE.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by no eff eks

Shoving blank rivers can't be too bad in a vacuum, so against a tight player it's probably +EV. I'm not running any equity calcs at 6:30am though.

Equity calculations would be kind of useless, because it all depends on if he is folding hands worse than TP often enough there... If we'd assume he fold even hands like 9A there, I would happily shove that with air.

As I said before... he knows you're 3betting light

Hmmh... first I found out that I can't write and now it seems I can't read either... sorry about that, I misunderstood your post. I thought you meant that you wouldn't think that I 3bet light.

About my betsizing... if I were on a stone cold bluff I could bet even smaller on the turn to get more calls and more FE on the river shove. Generally my turn bet is a little bigger (0.65x or something), but I have stated my reasons for this half pot bet in this case earlier on this thread.

[no eff eks]

Originally Posted by chinz

if I were on a stone cold bluff I could bet even smaller on the turn to get more calls and more FE on the river shove.

I like that too. Not sure which is better though since this is definitely exploitable, but not so much so that it would matter over <500-hand sample sizes.