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Old 01-11-2010, 07:28 AM
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Default HUSnG vs HU cash

Hey guys,

I'm having trouble trying to find proper words for what I want to ask, excuse me if it's messed up...

First, I'm successfully playing 6max NL50, but wanted to learn to play HU decently, and the minimum buy-in was always too high for me. I just didn't knew that HUSnG offers like the same experience for such a low price, and I don't like some things in these games so until yesterday haven't even thought about trying them out.

Thanks to Nostalgica exclusively, I did it yesterday and today, crushed micro-SnGs, and already feel my grasp of HU improved quite a lot.

My questions are:

Q1. In HUSnG, I like that struggle at the beginning where skill does matter a lot, but all ends up in robotic push-folds which I see is a big coinflipping overall. I understand it is inevitable consequence of game flow, yes it is the best way to play, and that kinda makes SnGs less attractive for me. Am I missing smth here, or is it truly the drawback of SnGs that doesn't exist in HU cash games?

Q2. What are the drawbacks of HU cash in comparison? I see it is higher rake and that's it? Suppose you play with the guy same skill level as yourself, so in HUSnG it's like a flip who wins in long run with a tiny rake, but in HU cash it's the same flip but both are raked hard. Please comment on this

Q3. Player pool/skill level. I'm primary interested in HU Cash NL50/NL100, what could be the same "difficulty" level at HUSnGs? Is it easier or harder to find weak players at SnGs?

Q4. ATM, I'm really enjoying microSnGs for two reaons: cheaply grasping HU dynamics, and they are fun no kidding My question is can I see it this way: learning at HUSnG with the aim of totally transitioning to HU Cash later as it is "better"? I know at least Chinz and Nostalgica should have their own opinions why do they prefer one or another, would be pleased if you guys say something about it here

Wanted to ask smth more, but forgotten what exactly, maybe later

Thanks for your feedback!
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Old 01-11-2010, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by podbelski View Post
Q1. In HUSnG, I like that struggle at the beginning where skill does matter a lot, but all ends up in robotic push-folds which I see is a big coinflipping overall. I understand it is inevitable consequence of game flow, yes it is the best way to play, and that kinda makes SnGs less attractive for me. Am I missing smth here, or is it truly the drawback of SnGs that doesn't exist in HU cash games?
There is guys like mientjeuh, croixdawg, livb/adonis and skilled_sox who are crushing highstakes turbo HUSNGs, saying that endgame doesn't require skill is plain ignorance.

Quote:
Q2. What are the drawbacks of HU cash in comparison? I see it is higher rake and that's it? Suppose you play with the guy same skill level as yourself, so in HUSnG it's like a flip who wins in long run with a tiny rake, but in HU cash it's the same flip but both are raked hard. Please comment on this
It's a different game imo, pros and cons between these two are just personal preferences imo. US sites don't have micro (well, below NL50) HU cash, so that's also a reason why HUSNGs are often recommended for beginning players.

Quote:
Q3. Player pool/skill level. I'm primary interested in HU Cash NL50/NL100, what could be the same "difficulty" level at HUSnGs? Is it easier or harder to find weak players at SnGs?
As they are completely different game you can't really directly compare them in difficulty... I'd say that ~$50 HUSNGs are equivalent to NL100.

Quote:
Q4. ATM, I'm really enjoying microSnGs for two reaons: cheaply grasping HU dynamics, and they are fun no kidding My question is can I see it this way: learning at HUSnG with the aim of totally transitioning to HU Cash later as it is "better"? I know at least Chinz and Nostalgica should have their own opinions why do they prefer one or another, would be pleased if you guys say something about it here
All the flipping at HUSNGs tilt the f out of me, that's why I prefer cash. If you want to become a good HU cash player, I would start at HU cash, unless you don't think you have enough bankroll for NL50, in which case micro HUSNGs are the only choice.

Learning any form of poker will probably help you to become a better player in another variation, but playing HUSNGs to learn how to play HU cash (or the other way around) doesn't really make sense imo.
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Old 01-12-2010, 05:13 AM
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[Upd] Tried buyins $5 - crushing as well, $10 - seems just beating cause experienced regs appear and I see many spots where I kinda don't know what to do... Played a couple of $10 - even. I guess just not skilled enough to easily outplay the opp like myself. In total, I'm up about $60 in first two days.

Q5. Table selection. The problem with SnG is I can't select who I will play against prior to putting the money in! I can't just sit, realize the opp is not comfortable for me and leave the table, as opposed to HU cash. Any thoughts on this, am I missing something?

Q6. Speed. Any thoughts on this? I mean, what are main consequences of playing normal/turbo/superturbo tables? Tried just normal for now, don't know what to think... One thing - I don't like variance at later stages due to push-folds, but many of my normal plays ran like this: I'm steadily biting his stack, and here it is - about 400 or less is left, a couple of flips and ohai! we are even again but the blinds are nearing 60-80... So maybe faster tables are essentially the same but more games can be played? What do you prefer and why? (I'm not sure - I think the more the speed the faster will levels increase, right?)
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Old 01-12-2010, 05:14 AM
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I have to disagree a little in that I think there is enough relevance between the two games that learning both can be useful. As I play both cash and SnGs, I feel that I have an edge vs other regs at 50+bb stacks at sngs, and I also deal with short stacks much much better at cash games, and, with today's game selection, you'll have to play short stacks a lot to get action.

In short, Chinz is right, each variation will help your ability somewhat, and if you want to play cash, play cash, if you want to play husngs, play that, but I think these two games have a significant amount of overlapping skills, and it's okay to play both games for money. There's nothing wrong about waiting for action on a cash table while playing huSnGs. In fact being a good HUSnG player has a lot of noticing stack death and dynamic, so it would in fact not be confusing at all if you p
played both at the same time.

That's one advantage, I believe, to SnGs. It's much easier to get action at HUSnGs at equivalent stakes than at HUCash, especially if you check out the tables lined up with regs on stars and FTP. I wouldn't say 50~ level is same as 100NL, but it's slightly less. HUSnGs overall allow you to get more volume in, imo.

As for shove fold, as Chinz pointed out, there are some very good high stakes players whose edges vs other regs (they almost constantly are forced to play weak regs and not just total fish at their stakes) are at the 15-25bb stacks. Surely if that's the case, short stacks can't possibly be considered the most skill-free part of the game?

The edges are small and sometimes difficult to see, but the more you play, the more you realize that these stack sizes are essentially easy money if you are good at it, as some regs, even, are terrible at these stack sizes, especially as you widen your range significantly, since it's such an awkward stacksize to play at.

So my suggestion? Try both, play both if you like both. You don't need to specialize one at the micro-small stakes. Maybe once you've gotten a lot of experience, and want to move up to the mid stakes, the 200s and the 2/4 stakes, for instance, you will want to focus, but at the lower stakes it doesn't really matter. Also, from what I can see from your posts, you're probably ready for 50NL HU. You seem to have a decent grasp on poker concepts, and you've said that you've had decent success at HUSnGs. If you truly want to play HUCash, go ahead, do it. I'd be the first one to sway you into playing HUSnGs, but the fact is that you're ready for both, so don't let "oh the stakes are too high, I won't be able to cope with the variance" to hold you back. Give yourself a 3 BI stop loss, and give it a shot if you want, but keep playing HUSnGs too =P

edit:

The general idea is sit first and regs will not sit you. At the 10-20 level you don't have to worry about regs. They all suck, and a fair amount of them suck even at the 50s or 100s, but certainly at <20~ just sit whoever. You may want to get sharkscope in the future and take good notes. That way if a good player sits you will see his note in the lobby. Color code it, of course.

As for speeds, turbos on FTP are really fast and I am not a fan of playing too much of it. I play turbos on stars and regs on FTP mostly. Turbos allow for very high hourly because matches last something like 4 minutes for some players.
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Old 01-12-2010, 08:00 AM
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Thank you very much guys!

With addition of recent Nostalgica's post on betsizes, I have more than enough info to go forward.

@Nostalgica:
one sentence I cannot understand, please rephrase:

Quote:
In fact being a good HUSnG player has a lot of noticing stack death and dynamic, so it would in fact not be confusing at all if you p
played both at the same time.
... and a quick update - playing $6 turbo SnGs now, have a feeling I like them more than regular ones, but not sure, have some reasons though.
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Old 01-12-2010, 08:20 AM
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I'm pretty sure he meant stack depth and not death.
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Old 01-12-2010, 08:33 AM
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Oh, yep that's obvious now

Observed SUPERturbo-SnG, wow that is what shortstacked play in essence - starting stacks are 10bbs
Won't play it now for sure, but - if it's truly possible to have an edge in this situation - it might be like moneyprinting

Last edited by podbelski; 01-12-2010 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 01-12-2010, 08:59 AM
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Just curious Nostalgica, how many tables is it comfortable for you to play simultaneously?

I've seen your winnings graph in another thread, highest you played is 57$ buy-ins, which is more than fine for me at the moment. But what were the highest shots that you have taken? Is there a level where you have like the best fish-to-stakes ratio (I beleive it's NL100/NL200 in 6max)?

Last edited by podbelski; 01-12-2010 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 01-12-2010, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by podbelski View Post
Oh, yep that's obvious now

Observed turbo-SnG, wow that is what shortstacked play in essence - starting stacks are 10bbs
Those are the super-turbo's.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:03 AM
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Thx it was a mistype
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