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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2010, 05:06 AM
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Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

863,001,216 games 1.000 secs 863,001,216 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 67.749% 67.44% 00.31% 582003856 2668114.00 { 88+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 32.251% 31.94% 00.31% 275661132 2668114.00 { 96s }


---
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2010, 06:18 AM
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I'm folding not because I'm crushed pre, but because I will be lost postflop guessing what he could really have, also w/o any clue how much FE do I have in certain spots (like on yours river)
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2010, 05:28 PM
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Isn't his range tighter than ours and therefore wouldn't he have to do more guessing than we do?

How can he play better postflop when he is out of position? He will have better equity, but the postflop edge cannot possibly be on the opponent's side.

I don't even think my play was good, I just thought it was shocking that people said OMGWTFLOLSPAZZ without actually thinking about the hand..

What range exactly do you put the villain on when he bet check bet?

Edit: Okay okay I lied. Actually I was the villain, not the hero. It was not intentional when I posted it but I used his HH instead of mine (we talk and were having some reg games for practice).

Last edited by PsycheStatic; 08-19-2010 at 05:33 PM.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2010, 06:22 PM
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It's a 3bet pot... so if he plays better than you, you won't have an edge - even ip, since the SPR is somewhat low.
And I don't think, the play is rly bad - it's high variance and I'd prefer to have more information on villain (e.g. how cally he is), but all in all I think it's fine, as long as you don't do that too often.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2010, 07:11 PM
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I still think river shove is worse than a fold in this particular match.

It's interesting though, what were you thinking when (how you say) he shoved over your river bet? And why haven't you bet the turn?
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2010, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
It's a 3bet pot... so if he plays better than you, you won't have an edge - even ip, since the SPR is somewhat low
I definitely don't think that. I have a lot of respect for his game, but I think we're even at worst. Also, going into a game with the assumption that villain has an edge on us is sort of ridiculous, as why do you even play against him in that case? To improve, yes, but how would you improve if you already assume you cannot play better than the other player?

I think folding 69s is atrocious 150bbs deep. SPR is not great, but definitely good enough. I think folding is atrocious because I think calling this even at 100bbs can very often be correct.

I was going to post all six matches with both player's hole cards revealed, but I couldn't do it, so I gave up.

We do have a lot of history in that we discuss strategy, so I guess there is a counter-level in that I know he checks top pair type hands for deception value against high intensity hand readers, not exactly me, because we don't play each other a lot, but certainly I expect him to do so. On the other hand, he knows my second barrel frequency is extremely high, with a moderate cbet %, and that I value bet extremely thin.

I asked and basically he was trying to fold me off middle pockets that would definitely value bet the river. Because he thinks my barrel frequency is high, he expects me to do it with value hands too.

Anyway, I checked back turn because I needed to have some strong hands in my turn checking range, and I thought it best to do with a range that is less afraid of a spade turn, so I choose to do it with a hand like AK or KQ with a flush draw, and barrel the ones without, as those gain more from protection and charging flush draws. Also, with AKs, by checking there I can check/shove to defend my cbet check turn range, although this sort of balance is a bit over the top. In theory check calling and checking any river is probably best, especially a spade, as he would rep spades and also bet any flush himself, but I probably cannot bring myself to check/call with so strong a hand, so I might minraise or 2.5x raise to induce, because there is some history of me making small raises and bets. I think every option is close, but I'd check shove against unknowns and c/c against known regs without extensive history to induce light value bets and bluffs.

On the river my thought was 79, other two pairs, 68ss very occasionally, naked spades, or a weaker hand turned into a bluff. I don't want to claim credit, I don't remember, but I probably expect pair turned into a bluff some times. I paused and called mostly to bluff catch, but I was top of my range and people don't make two pair + that often... It wasn't a hard call because I know I can't bet/fold 100% with top pair, and if I am going to bet/call sometimes with top pair, I might as well do it with TPTK.

IDK how I would've played TPWK if I had checked turn, which I do sometimes, but it would've put me in a tough spot, not to mention I have hands weaker than top pair a lot. Essentially TPNK is the same hand as AK really, as they both have blockers to top two pair and such.


I don't think it was definitely the best play, I am just a bit baffled by the responses...
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2010, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PsycheStatic View Post
I don't think it was definitely the best play, I am just a bit baffled by the responses...
If your OP was somewhat as detailed as the last one, I think you get much more tolerant responses. Also, a reg at mid stakes differs a lot from a reg at micros, and your OP looked more like from the the micros
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2010, 01:26 PM
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I don't agree, that TPTK = TPNK here. He could very well make this play with KQ, maybe KJ, if he puts you on a midpair or TPWK and thinks, that you have cally tendencies.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2010, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
I don't agree, that TPTK = TPNK here. He could very well make this play with KQ, maybe KJ, if he puts you on a midpair or TPWK and thinks, that you have cally tendencies.
If the 2bettor had KJ and think it has value, why wouldn't he either raise the flop where he can rep/charge draws, or bet the turn when 3bettor has decided not to double barrel air but may c/c with those mid-pair type hands? The only value is if the 3bettor compulsively bet-check-bet bluffs with air, but if he is bet-check-betting with air, there is no value in raising river and should flat river. If he is checking turn to induce/pot control, then he would have called a turn bet.

In order for river shove with a hand that is weaker than AK, the 2bettor must think 3bettor is able to bet/call JJ QQ in that spot, which is an extreme example. But not only that, he must fold those same hands if 2bettor bets turn then river the 3bettor will fold. I would argue that it's far more likely that a weak hand will call a turn + river stab than a check back and river shove, without rather unlikely history/dynamics, and even then I would at most give them equal weight and say, if they are calling in that spot, he'd likely call if the 3bettor just barreled also.

What sort of frequency/history do you think makes shoving KJ on the river for value to be +EV or worth considering? What sort of situation makes a check back turn, shove river for value line okay for a hand weaker than AK? And since we assume AK gets stacked off preflop, basically KQ or wose?

A bad player can potentially shove worse on the rive, but this is a reg, and I guess I should make it a clear a thinking/decent reg, not a bad one.

As such I really don't see how the shove on the river is not polarized between two pair + or draws. Shoving KJ KQ on the river is pretty stupid if both players are playing normally.
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