400NL - Light 3bet spot

[urbansprawler]

Where did you read 'reg?' OP had been at the table for less than 12 hands and automatically you assume he is a good player? I would be pretty surprised if he didn't have a set here actually, or at least AK.

[AdrienD]

Originally Posted by urbansprawler

Where did you read 'reg?' OP had been at the table for less than 12 hands and automatically you assume he is a good player? I would be pretty surprised if he didn't have a set here actually, or at least AK.

400NL+ more than full stacked + didnt do anything out of line = way more likely to be reg than huge fish.

[urbansprawler]

Originally Posted by AdrienD

400NL+ more than full stacked + didnt do anything out of line = way more likely to be reg than huge fish.

Any random at any limit below 5/10 is far more likely to be a weak player who will flat call preflop with 66/44 or AK than a solid regular.

I would agree with mxrider that the decision is on the flop. You either play for stacks and ship the turn when he checks or call when he does it himself. Anything else is just really, really bad.

FWIW a range of 66/44 and suited connectors is ahead of OP's holding.

[Trikkur]

I havent commented on a hand in a while, so hopefully I'm not too rusty

This hand is pretty gross though all around and I think it shows why 3-betting crap just leads to crappy spots. Each and every street gives us a hard decision that all could of been avoided by not 3-betting total trash against someone that has been at the table for 12 hand and done nothing out of line. Folding isn't that bad you know.

But, lets continue on.

Flop comes and we hit top pair, which I guess is pretty much the best we can hope for after 3-betting K9o. I don't really like your c-bet size here. It allows him to have way more options with stupid stuff like this check/min raise. There are a decent amount of SCs and the like that wouldn't mind semi-bluffing us, so I would rather bet 70-75ish.

After the check min-raise, I don't think you can really fold or you really shouldn't of 3-bet in the first place. I don't really like shoving because he's only going to call better and fold most of those semi-bluffs. I say call.

On the turn you get a safe card and don't get any worse vs his range. I'm not totally sure why he checks here since the board does have a few draws and such, but I don't think "pot-controlling" is correct here for you. Again, if you want to pot control because you don't think your hand is good enough, you really really really shouldn't be 3-betting here. I think some sort of bet has to be made here. I'm not really sure what the right number is though and maybe some people can give their opinions. Is all in the only option?

I just think if we check here, he's going to have to bet all his hands that are worse than us on the river so we never get a free showdown.

Sorry for the long post, here is CLIFF NOTES
-Don't 3-bet crappy hands when there is no reason to
-Seriously though, don't 3-bet crappy hands

[AdrienD]

Originally Posted by Trikkur

Sorry for the long post, here is CLIFF NOTES
-Don't 3-bet crappy hands when there is no reason to
-Seriously though, don't 3-bet crappy hands

I don't agree.
Hero is in position and villain is more likely to be a reg than a fish and regs don't call 3bets light OOP + hero has an AK blocker and his king is very often good if he hits because regs 3bet calling ranges OOP have very few kings in their range (they would 4bet AK pre a lot and fold KJo so KQo and KJs are the only hands most of the time that dominate you).

With < PSB left on turn I can't see any other option than shoving. gaybetting would be very gay indeed because you're giving him very good odds on his draws and you're potcomitted anyway as will he with pair+FD, gutshot+FD, overs+FD.

As played I only fold river because I put flushdraws as a big part of villains range atleast much more often than made hands and pure bluffs (he DID call OOP). I'd snapcall any non-club river though.

[TheDeKay]

Thx for all your replies!
And yes, I think I should have shoved the turn. Another option I thought of might be to just check the flop...

Originally Posted by Trikkur

Sorry for the long post, here is CLIFF NOTES
-Don't 3-bet crappy hands when there is no reason to
-Seriously though, don't 3-bet crappy hands

I think there are enough good reasons to 3bet with K9 here... of course we can fold as well - but why not use our position, create an aggro image etc.? Imo we should get enough FE to make the 3bet profitable pre. And even if he calls with a wide range or something - we still win the pot most of the time... This hand is one crappy spot you get into once every 10k hands or so but in the meanwhile you make good profit (and even if I lose my whole stack with 0 equity in this spot, I still think there's profit in 3betting pre here).

Originally Posted by urbansprawler

Any random at any limit below 5/10 is far more likely to be a weak player who will flat call preflop with 66/44 or AK than a solid regular.

Have you played 200NL+?
Imo there are far more regs than fish and I don't have played much in that room, so I have no notes on every reg...

[Trikkur]

I just think you are jumping the gun. You've only been at the table for 2 orbits and unless you are truly trying to create a maniacal image, you should probably just pass in this situation. 3-bet something like 7Ts here, but K9o is just a crappy spot when you hit your top pair.

This hand is one crappy spot you get into once every 10k hands or so but in the meanwhile you make good profit (and even if I lose my whole stack with 0 equity in this spot, I still think there's profit in 3betting pre here).

I don't think this is true at all. If 3-betting K9o is still profitable here even if you lose your whole stack, that means you should probably be 3-betting ATC here, which I don't believe is true. I just seriously think you need to pick your light 3-bet spots better.

But since you did 3-bet with this hand, I don't see how you could ever be folding when you flop your top pair.

[urbansprawler]

I do agree with trikkur that if you call on the flop, you have to shove the turn.

And, dekay, reg =/= good player. Most regs are terrible and make <2ptbb profit. For whatever reason, be it tilt (in my case, it is a huge problem), playing too aggressively, calling too much, etc etc.

Calling preflop there with 66/44 is actually a very common leak as people see the odds as something like "OH SNAP 10:1 I CALL" without really thinking about it. In short, he is likely to be a reg, but not a good especially since good regulars will try very hard not to play out of position versus another good regular in a 3-bet pot. If he is a good reg he is more likely to be 4-betting something like A2s or 67s rather than calling with it. So, when he just flat-calls, it already (bayes theorem application here) makes it slightly more likely that he's a bad reg.

[TheDeKay]

@ Trikkur: Hm, no... K9o > ATC, cause we have a blocker for AK, KK making it less likely he holds these hands. But I agree, that it's pretty marginal and that T7s is a better hand to 3bet here.
Actually I'm quite picky with my 3bet spots but I figured that this was a somewhat good spot, cause it's Bu vs Co, we have a blocker, I was pretty inactive and have nothing against building a bit more aggressive image.

@urban: Hm, yes... makes sense.

[podbelski]

Hmm, just curious how would you played if it was AK, or KQ?