Beware of Early AM games on Stars

[Josh]

So for the past while i've been learning some hard lessons, but also improving my game tremendously. I work varying hours at my job, so I never know when I'll be playing poker.
Sometimes its the the day, sometimes its at night, sometimes its the wee hours of the morn.

But let me tell you something. The games are VERY VERY different during these different hours. Well sure you say. Of course they are. But maybe you dont really understand. And maybe you dont say "Sure. Of course they are."

Why am I even writing this? I'll tell why. Because the mircostakes methods taught and discussed on this this site dont mean shit at late night games on Stars if your multitabling too many tables. Whats it mean, "To maybe tables"? It means you don't understand the tendencies of the individual players at each individual table.

When your playing 4+ tables and other hardcore poker players realize your playing a standard internet learned game system type style, your gonna get raped.

They will call all your raises preflop, they will call down any cbets you make, then when you check turn they will bet.

You will hit your top pair top kicker flop, but they will call you down with top, middle or bottom pair, often they will make 2 pair by or on the river. If they dont, it doesnt matter because they were on a straight or flush draw with a rag hand.

Your trips are worthless when they call your 4xBigblind raise preflop with any suited or connected cards. You hit your trips, they hit their draw. Its a monkeys game. Your trips often dont hold up.

They know your range and they are playing against it.
They dont have a range. Their range is any two cards. And if your mulitabling your gonna think these "donks" are getting lucky all night sucking out with shit hands. You'll drop 5 buy ins, go on tilt and hate your life. Maybe you'll think its variance. But if your smart your realize something else.
These players arent donks. They are skilled players who know how much you value your hands, they also know when you have hit your hands and when you have missed because your range is small and your betting patterns are simple and consistent. In the situations where its hard to tell if you have a have a hand they get cards for cheep with strategic betting.

Im telling you from my experience, that in these late night games your far better off to focus on a table or two and really watch players tendencies. You'll learn a whole lot about the game. And, when you got things figured you can really take these fuckers to value town.

I lost alot of money in these late night games before I realized what was going on. I was just trying to play my top game. Premium hands, nicely sized PFRs, c-bets, betting my TPTK hands for value on every street, playing my pairs for trips. You know the style. You learned it here.

But like I said, in these games that style doesn't pay off, and if your mulitabeling you can kiss your BR goodbye.

But there is a style that does pay off.
And it involves using that predictable TAG image to exploit these late night limping calling machines.

Its called bending the rules. Its called raising all manner of hands preflop after these guys limp. And your not raising for 3.5-4x the BB, but raising 7-20x the BB with nearly any hand. You dont just make em pay a bit to hit their lucky flop you make them pay a lot.
When the board comes with 2 face cards or an ace, they put you on one of "your" hands you bet pot, or you overbet the pot and they fold. Of course you actually had 73.
If they call, you shut down. But guess what, their not hitting their flops very often, and with your image, your flops are much more likely. Your taking down some really nice pots.

At some point they will stop believing you, they will think you are tricking them because they just checked the board down after caling one of your massive c-bets. They will begin to call down ALOT more of your giant bets regardless of whats on the flop. And now you've got them. They are acting like the biggest fish in the world because they dont believe you. Now what do you do? TIGHTEN UP. These guys are pissed and they want their money back. They will stay at the table while you fold fold fold preflop while occationally paying them off with small pots. Then come back with one of your gigantic raises, 10xBB, its their chance to call you down, but now your hold AKs and you hit TPTK on the flop plus your drawing to the nut flush. Hes on J8 and doesnt believe you for shit. You bet pot on every street and he calls it right to the end.

I made 4 buy ins last night on one table playing this way against these guys and it felt great.

But let it be a lesson to anyone not in the know. These donks calling you down with all manner of hands are not donks. They are vampires, and they come out at night to suck your bankroll right out of you.

[Aji89]

If there's tables where everybody is calling me down with any draw and any pair then I would love to be playing 10 tables rather than 2. And with a hud you can quite easily determine the basic tendancies of the players.

Don't mean to be too critical but I think your post is based on pretty results orientated thinking.

[sulphh]

Please tell me you're kidding..

Stars in the morning is SUPERSOFT. You're complaining that fish are calling you with ATC?

I actually signed up to belittle you because what you said is just so results orientated it's funny.

cy@.

[TheDeKay]

I can understand your thoughts, but imo... you are just overthinking varianz.
I multitabled 16tables of 200NL to about every time of the day... and yes, there are times, where you are playing against way more donks, but this is way easier than the times, where they "respect your raises".

If they limp-call 20BB preflop, that's fine, but plzzz do NOT do this /w 73o, cause they will often enough hit to rape you ^^ And if they call 20BB preflop although they have a tight image of you, why not just do this /w your good hands? I would be happy, if I would get 20BB for every premium hand I start ^^ And even if they hit their set from time to time I still make profit, since they didn't have the odds to call preflop.

There is nothing like a winning 70/10/5-player (ok... maybe on absolut poker ^^)!!
Just seems to me, that you are somewhat pissed off, cause sb luckboxed against you. I see it from time to time, that a total donk runs his minbuyin up to 5buyins... but he will lose everything, if he keeps on playing.

[Padawan]

Josh,
I totally understand why you would think the way you do. I've noticed the common, but exploitable, call the cbet IP and if checked to bet mentality. These players no we are not maniacs so they can exploit us by being maniacs and bluffers. What you need to do is recognize these players and exploit them. I 8-12 table and am able to do this. Once you figure who they are. Just let them limp call your standard raise and do your standard cbet and then check to them. They will fire pot, think and then call, they will fire pot again. Now min raise and boom they are stacked. oh did I have AA, KK, QQ the whole time. I did this with the nut flush on the flop and dude called my c-bet and when I checked he shoved. Insta stack a donk. They love to bluff be patient.

Things to consider.
I used to want to win x amount of BI per session. Now Im ok with just x amount of BB.
Playing 10NL with such a big rake at FTP kinda sucks.. But right now Im building my roll with rakeback. So as long as I am even at the end of my session Im happy.

These players actually want to play mind game poker, which is better suited at the higher stakes, of course they are not good enough to play at the higher stakes BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT PROS.... NO PRO is going to waste there time at the micro stakes... so they are not VAMPIRES sucking your BR

ok thanks thats all

[dansiek]

just be patient with them, dont bluff as much and u will do good.

[R8tme]

Looks like 1-4 session oriented whining.
DOn't you think that raising 20X preflop is too much, If you are 200BB-300BB deep, yes you can do it
But with 100BB deep it's just spewing money.
Make notes on your opponents, try to find their weak spots.


When I played on Bodog at one point I started to raise like 10X and found it profitable at one point, but then variance hits you on this play too, and buy-in by buy-in go to the drain.
Luckily I stopped fast.

And it's really ----EV play.

[Padawan]

oh yeah I forgot to mention what R8tme just talked about

I started to find myself raising more just to get them off the marginal hands. But they still called and when the flop came low.. Nothing I could do about it when I got check raised. Except spew shove my overs... NO THANKS... Just keep it standard.

[Josh]

Wow, lots of comments to respond to, but no ones agreeable. Thats cool I cant wait to meet any of you at the tables so I can play junk and take all money because your style is so predictable. There is alot of meta game shit that goes on and your not going to notice any of it when your on 3 hands at a time clicking furiously just to keep up.

[no eff eks]

Originally Posted by R8tme

Looks like 1-4 session oriented whining.

lol, qft.

It's been said a million-trillion-billion times.... if you can't beat people because "they play crap and always hit their miracle" then you are not playing good poker. Read forums, read books, watch videos, play more hands -- eventually you're going to either get it or give up.