Another spot with 10-10

[ThatDeviant]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

I am am confused as to why some people think a value bet is thin here.

Yeah, it's not even remotely thin.

Some people are just weak tight and wonder why they breakeven though.

[AdrienD]

Originally Posted by no eff eks

Maybe you guys should think a little bit before mindlessly betting just because you're ahead of their range.

So you really don't expect villain to call even an AI overbet (he has around 3$ left) with hands that we beat often enough to make this play +EV ?
Im not just betting "because I'm ahead of his range". If this was a nit I would obviously check behind cause he would either fold his missed FD or only call with hands that beat us, but this does not look like a nit. First of all players at 4NL don't tend to be very "foldable" and secondly he limp-called and min donkbet-called flop which indicates even more that he is a fish/donk that is willing to pay off the river with a wide range especially when the flushdraw missed which must be a huge part of your perceived range (if he is even THINKING about what you have).

@no eff eks: HU4ROLLZ ?

[lowkey]

Originally Posted by ThatDeviant

He means the times where you have the best hand almost always but value betting is pointless because the times you do get called (rarely) you'll only be getting called by better hands.

Right Then its not a value bet at all because worse hands won't call at all.

I think we're defining "value bet" differently, but we agree in principle

Adrien: BB only has 1.11 left by the river. He started with 2.27, so the AI wouldn't be an overbet at all UTG that donkbet folded to the legit reraise. We're left with the BB who has been passive the whole hand. As stated before we could be losing value by putting him all in if he's one of the many micro slowplayers that like to c/c sets.

I don't work under the impression that people are slowplayers until they prove otherwise. Since its better in the long run for me to bet out and lose to a monster (and have a good note on the player), than to miss out on lots of potential value from straight up fishy play.

Which is why I said earlier to make him drop his last dollar in the pot, and chuckle if you see a slowplayed winner, because you'll win wayyy more than that off slowplayers in an hour than they can take from you in a month, once you recognize them

[no eff eks]

Originally Posted by ThatDeviant

Yeah, it's not even remotely thin.

Some people are just weak tight and wonder why they breakeven though.

Yeah, that's me... breakeven and weak tight.

Betting this river against an unknown isn't just too thin, it's a losing play. TAG-fish like you guys are hilarious.

[ThatDeviant]

I make plays like that all the time and it's massively +ev.

Being scared to value bet a big pocket pair just because on overcard falls on the river (against a loose passive calling station) is the definition of weak tight.

lol @ tagfish comment, n1.

[given1982]

Wow. This thread is a big mess. I feel like most people didn't even read the hand history correctly. Villain has less than a half-pot bet left. I think it is a value shove. Villain is described as an average 4NL player. To me, that means that he can't fold top pair. We have an overpair to the flop, and to me, that's all there is to analyzing the hand.

I really don't understand the name-calling and such. Deviant and NOFX seem to have this weird combative vibe in several threads on this forum, and I just don't get it. Just because you disagree on an isolated spot doesn't make the other person a terrible poker player or a TAGfish or whatever else. You just disagree. Maybe if you tried to hash out your disagreement by proving your point through hand ranges and the resultant math rather than name-calling, everyone involved would get a lot more out of it.

[no eff eks]

Let's make one thing very clear...

He started it.

This river is just not a value shove unless you have a better read than what was provided. That's not being weak-tight, that's playing good poker. People at these stakes just do not go broke with worse than our TT and any bet might as well be a shove.

If you're capable of making a tiny value bet then folding go ahead and do so -- that's what I'd do.... but shoving is just bad.

[given1982]

Originally Posted by no eff eks

Let's make one thing very clear...

He started it.

This river is just not a value shove unless you have a better read than what was provided. That's not being weak-tight, that's playing good poker. People at these stakes just do not go broke with worse than our TT and any bet might as well be a shove.

If you're capable of making a tiny value bet then folding go ahead and do so -- that's what I'd do.... but shoving is just bad.

It's not possible to bet/fold here. A shove is less than 1/2 pot. I really don't think an average 4NL fish is going to lay down 89-A9 on the river here after putting in more than half his stack, especially when the flush draw missed. Also, it's hard to see how he could get to the river with a better hand and then check it.

[ThatDeviant]

Your standard 4nl player is calling with any pair for half a PSB on this river.

We beat almost all one pair hands. He's shown no strength to suggest he has better than TT. Donk called with a 9 or a flush draw most likely, check called a half pot turn bet with a weak hand (would have raised turn or bet river w/ 2p or better) and then he CHECKS THE RIVER to us and we have a strong overpair (he has hardly any Qx in his range by this point) on a board w/ no possible flushes or straights.

One of the easiest value shoves I've seen posted on this forum and I'm bemused you disagree.

(fwiw i agree w/ given, no need to get personal).

I also asked my coach for comfirmation and he says is a mistake not to be betting here also.

[Houserocker]

People at these stakes just do not go broke with worse than our TT and any bet might as well be a shove.


Um...you're playing $4NL. People at these stakes will typically be the worst players on the web. Speaking generally. They will go broke with anything.

Honestly I think that an indepth thread about most of these micro micro hands is a bit useless. More often than not, you're not dealing with a thinking player. It's very hard figuring out what his 'range' is if he has no idea what his range is and what it means.

The times I've messed around at $4 NL, people have usually showed up with some pretty comical shite. TPGK or an overpair (vs typical $4 NL players) is usually a ticket to valuetown, so get on that train.