Folding overpairs

[Ravelord]

Hey guys,

So I've been getting kinda crushed with overpairs the last couple of days and I wanted to know what your thoughts are on this.

Say you are in LP with AA/KK/QQ and UTG TAG player raises to 1 dollar. You 3-bet him, the rest folds and he flat calls.
The flop comes 649r. He checks, you bet and you are getting check-(min)-raised.

Everytime for the past couple of days against a TAG player I reraised all in and he shows a set.

Against TAG/LAG players, in a 3-bet pot with no real draws out there, are you folding that overpair?

[TheDeKay]

25NL? How much do you 3bet?
I get it in /w QQ+ on such a board. I might call his minc/r, so he can bluff me on the turn... but I'm willing to get it in... with QQ I'm less likely to force the action than /w KK and AA though.

[given1982]

KK+ is an autostackoff. I'm not sure that you should be 3betting a TAG's UTG open with QQ at 25NL.

[no eff eks]

Stop 3betting overpairs other than AA/KK when you get check min-raised on the flop... take it from there.

About the lags and folding overpairs on uncoordinated boards... Honestly these dry boards are the easiest to get away from when you have an overpair. People just rarely go crazy with just top pair and they can't have a draw better than a gutshot (if that).... so basically they rep 2pr+ when they c/r on these flops although sometimes it'll be a strong top pair. When people are claiming to have a range stronger than yours it's best to slow down and play a bit more passively, even with most overpairs.

A decent LAG isn't usually playing much differently than a decent TAG on these kinds of boards. Bad LAGs are a different story, and in those cases I'd be 3bet/getting it in with any overpair in most situations.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by given1982

KK+ is an autostackoff. I'm not sure that you should be 3betting a TAG's UTG open with QQ at 25NL.

3betting just about any hand against TAG's UTG opening range is +EV... if we assume that avarage taggie opens 11% from UTG and his calling/4betting range is 2.6% (QQ+, AK) it doesn't really matter if we check-fold every flop or fold to 4bet every time... We make profit just by betting.

If he only flats it, I am getting it in on non K/A flop anytime... because I don't think they flat KK or AA that often and with proper betsizing they don't have the odds to setmine. If I get 4bet preflop, it's an easy fold.

[given1982]

Originally Posted by chinz

3betting just about any hand against TAG's UTG opening range is +EV... if we assume that avarage taggie opens 11% from UTG and his calling/4betting range is 2.6% (QQ+, AK) it doesn't really matter if we check-fold every flop or fold to 4bet every time... We make profit just by betting.

If he only flats it, I am getting it in on non K/A flop anytime... because I don't think they flat KK or AA that often and with proper betsizing they don't have the odds to setmine. If I get 4bet preflop, it's an easy fold.

So you want to 3bet QQ because you think villain will fold all worse hands and get it in with all better and flipping hands? Maybe you should rethink that.

[lowkey]

Originally Posted by given1982

So you want to 3bet QQ because you think villain will fold all worse hands and get it in with all better and flipping hands? Maybe you should rethink that.

Why?

Unless I'm missing someting chinz was referring to 3betting ATC, and since he folds much more than he flats (and we dont hit a monster flop)/shoves, we profit.

Obviously if we did this every time we'd end up getting 4bet light. But I don't see where the play is inherently -EV, if used in moderation.

If I'm missing a step here, please enlighten me

[given1982]

Originally Posted by lowkey

Why?

Unless I'm missing someting chinz was referring to 3betting ATC, and since he folds much more than he flats (and we dont hit a monster flop)/shoves, we profit.

Obviously if we did this every time we'd end up getting 4bet light. But I don't see where the play is inherently -EV, if used in moderation.

If I'm missing a step here, please enlighten me

Chinz was talking about "just about any hand," but he was responding to my post about 3betting QQ. And even using the ranges that he gave, villain would be shoving all better and flipping hands and folding all worse hands. You don't see how that's inherently -EV?

If Chinz's assumptions were right, then he would be right that it would be profitable to 3bet 27o, but because the thread asked about QQ-AA, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

[lowkey]

Originally Posted by given1982

Chinz was talking about "just about any hand," but he was responding to my post about 3betting QQ. And even using the ranges that he gave, villain would be shoving all better and flipping hands and folding all worse hands. You don't see how that's inherently -EV?

If Chinz's assumptions were right, then he would be right that it would be profitable to 3bet 27o, but because the thread asked about QQ-AA, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

Ok I see where the confusion is. We're looking at the math the same way but you're talking about QQ on its own. Yeah -EV for that one hand.