NL50: 3bet sizing & playing overpair postflop deepstack

[chinz]

I know this is just a cooler and money's gonna end up in the middle anyway here... You don't have to mention that. Anyway I'd like to check a few things that I've been uncertain with.


3bet sizing
CO raises to 4bb, button flats it and I'm in the SB with AA, effective stacks with original raiser are 170bb and button is 100bb. How much should I 3bet? I decided to go for 16bb, but I'm really not sure, if it's enough. If we had 100bb it would be pretty standard, but should I raise a little more (18-20bb) when we are deep?


Postflop
When he raises the flop, his range is probably air, draws (AK of hearts), QQ and KK (assuming he wouldn't 4bet that) and sets. So I am not really happy seeing a raise, but I'm not folding.

Was my way to play this OK, or should I just have shoved on the flop? My reasoning behind calling was that he could actually fold QQ sometimes when I shove, but when I check the turn he will shove it. He could also have a air (underpair or something) and might go crazy with that and shove when I try to show weakness. He was a 22/18 regular, so I really doubt that however.


$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG PrettyBoy8 ($47.75)
CO faldh ($171.04)
BTN BONNENUiT ($49.00)
SB Hero ($84.02)
BB saimo ($101.09)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 5 players) Hero is SB A:heart: A:club:
1 fold, faldh raises to $2, BONNENUiT calls $2, Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, faldh calls $6, BONNENUiT folds

Flop: T:heart: 5:diamond: J:heart: ($18.75, 2 players)
Hero bets $15, faldh raises to $33, Hero calls $18

Turn: 8:club: ($84.75, 2 players)
Hero checks, faldh bets $43.50, Hero goes all-in $43.02

River: 8:diamond: ($171.27, 2 players)

Final Pot: $171.27
faldh shows: T:club: T:spade:
Hero shows: A:heart: A:club:

faldh wins $168.02 ( won +$83.52 )
BONNENUiT lost -$2
Hero lost -$84.27

[postoakpoker]

I would have raised a bit more pf due to the deeper stacks, as you said. deeper stacks = higher implied odds, but the more you raise pf with your obviously better hand, the more you cut down on implied odds. i don't think he'd fold to your larger 3bet in this situations obviously, but 3betting a bit bigger pf makes playing postflop a little easier (since the PSR is lower).

[lowkey]

any reads on vill other than the preflop stats? They help us define his range, but don't tell the whole story. How often is he reraising the flop after flatting a PF raise?

without them I'm going broke every time here, usually when he raises me on the flop.

If He's TAGish or Nitty postflop, I might be tempted to fold the turn bet, since he'd be doing everything except screaming to you he has either a set (likely) or a straight (unlikely).

LAG/fish postflop: I'd go broke but cry since he could be doing this with anything from a made straight to bottom pair. Again I'd put him all in on the flop if i was determined i was getting my money in.

[given1982]

You didn't give any reads or stats, but against unknowns I would 3bet to 10-11 preflop and 3bet shove the flop.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by given1982

You didn't give any reads or stats, but against unknowns I would 3bet to 10-11 preflop and 3bet shove the flop.

We had played about 150 hands together so far, and I had 8.7% 3bet frequency on that table. That's why (on the flop) I thought he might actually have air sometimes... On the turn I didn't really have any other options than call.

As I said he was 22/18 (is everyone here blind or what?) and I haven't seen him do anything stupid. No better reads.

I probably should have sized my bet a little larger like you said (tho not that big imo). My reasoning for that 16bb is that I like to squeeze or 3bet light a lot and I don't want to make them 20bb too.

With my 3betting tendency, I find it really weird that he decided just to call... He had something like 13:1 (call:stacks) and about 60% of the time (AK/AQ misses, I 3bet with air, I have JJ-KKand overcard comes...) he doesn't get a lot of value out from me. Even when he hits, There's something like 10% chance I have a better set or outdraw him. On the long run, I think 4betting or folding would be better for him... The fish in the middle maybe made him call, as he would have seen the flop 3way with smaller PPs (which are a big part of flatting range preflop). If that wasn't his reasoning, he is an idiot in my opinion. He didn't have the odds to setmine in 2way pot.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by lowkey

If He's TAGish or Nitty postflop, I might be tempted to fold the turn bet, since he'd be doing everything except screaming to you he has either a set (likely) or a straight (unlikely).

This is not really an option imo. If i wanted to fold, I should have done it on the flop. There is two possible draws, he might have KK, QQ or AJ and it's $43 to call to $128 or something... I only have to win one out of 4 times to make it a right call on the turn. I know my equity there is very low, maybe around 40% against his range but definately enough for a call.

The way I play (26/24 with 8% 3bet) you'd be surprised, how much you see hands like QQ, AJ or AhKh here...

BTW... A straight, are you kidding me? What kind of straight could a 22/18 nit have here?


EDIT:
Other thing I disagree a bit with you... When he raises the flop, I think it makes him less likely to have a set. Q is the only real scare card for him and I have a very aggressive image. That biases his range _SLIGHTLY_ towards top pair, overpair or a draw. He might have also been a little scared of the flush draw, but anyway... About that turn bet you are right tho, it made me wanna cry... I was trying really hard to come up with a reason to fold, but I was simply given too good odds.

[given1982]

Originally Posted by chinz

As I said he was 22/18 (is everyone here blind or what?)

You put it at the very end.

[lowkey]

BTW... A straight, are you kidding me? What kind of straight could a 22/18 nit have here?

that's why I said it was unlikely, but I've learned never assume your opponent won't have the best possible hole cards, no matter how crazy it would seem.

This is not really an option imo. If i wanted to fold, I should have done it on the flop.

Somewhat agree: without accurate reads on his style I'd probably fold here, but if he was trying to iso the fish and we were relatively sure of this, we have another variable in our decision.

As I said he was 22/18 (is everyone here blind or what?) and I haven't seen him do anything stupid. No better reads.

saw it, that's why I asked about postflop. a 22/18 could be anything from a nit to an aggromonkey after the flop.

The fish in the middle maybe made him call

That would have been nice to know earlier as it skews things
Given this, it was most likely a "good" call, but I never really like calling an all-in without a huge hand. Rather push myself and chant "FoldEquityFoldEquityFoldEquityFoldEquity" His stack size says he's not folding any decent hand though.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by lowkey

Somewhat agree: without accurate reads on his style I'd probably fold here

I'll say this again, even if we use ONLY TT, JJ, QQ and 1 permutation of AK (AhKh) as his range, I have very good odds for a turn call... Even tho I lose most of the time.

The real question is do I want to fold on the flop... which I don't think is a good play. We can argue about that, but I am 100% certain that that turn call was right (if I end up calling on the flop).

That would have been nice to know earlier as it skews things
Given this, it was most likely a "good" call, but I never really like calling an all-in without a huge hand. Rather push myself and chant "FoldEquityFoldEquityFoldEquityFoldEquity" His stack size says he's not folding any decent hand though.

(lol, I seem to disagree with everything )
Folding equity? We certainly DON'T want any, because his range has worse hands and he is NEVER folding a better hand here. We want to keep all those hands in the pot, that's why I called and checked the turn, trying to make those QQ, AJs or AhKh do a big mistake on the turn.

EDIT:
For some reason I didn't count AhQh as his range, even tho it's exactly the same as AK (gutshot + nut-FD) in this spot. So we should also add 1 permutation of AQ to his range here. And against my squeeze, he would definately call with AQs (because I'm a bit on the LAGgy side and he probably knew it).

[lowkey]

Your logic is 100% spot on.

The only difference in opinion we have is his hand range. I tend to overestimate how good an opponents hand vs board is when he's unkown.

Dead on accurate given your reads though. Good play.