Gotta call this with JJ, right?

[TylerDurden]

not much history on villian. Suspicious min 4bet preflop and big pot flop bet made me think he didnt have a bigger pair then mine. Right Read?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) ($48.25)
UTG ($87.65)
MP ($10)
CO ($111.50)
Button ($126.60)
SB ($50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J
2 folds, CO bets $2, 2 folds, Hero raises to $6, CO raises to $10, Hero calls $4

Flop: ($20.25) 7, 4, 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $20.25, Hero raises to $38.25 (All-In), CO calls $18

Turn: ($96.75) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($96.75) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $96.75 | Rake: $3

Should I have mucked hand preflop since oop?
Should I have led out on flop?

[lowkey]

no history: I flip a coin here on the ship

seriously

Preflop I'd probably fold to the 4bet

Looks like someone who doesn't use the bet slider has AA or KK TBH

[postoakpoker]

I'd probably say that the min 4bet indicates that he DOES have a bigger pair than you. he could have potted the flop to look like a bluff/AK or because your call of his 4bet pretty much indicates at the weakest 1010+ (probably not AK bc that ships it pre or folds) and he wants to get the money in before a potential scary overcard comes. it's also not the driest board in the world, although the PSR should probably discount him wanting to protect against "draws", especially since you called a 4bet, which you're likely not gonna do with a medium pair or a SC. any stats on villain?

[TheDeKay]

I don't really like calling here pre. Either push or fold... If we played some hands /w him and this is the first time he does this, we could put him on QQ+ and setmine, cause the odds are about right, but without that knowledge make your decision pre, so you'll get some value out of AK...

[Billy]

I dont know how to fold pf to that minraise??
Had same line by villain yesterday and he had 22... but so often they have the over pair and I guess he had QQ-AA. So its always ugly if u just call pf to see a low flop and then get it in with 10%

[Colossos159]

Originally Posted by TylerDurden

Should I have mucked hand preflop since oop?
Should I have led out on flop?

You should muck the hand preflop because he is never doing this with worse than JJ. Your line looks strong and he knows that but his line looks way stronger.

This is when villain is an unknown. Versus a table maniac i'm getting it in on flop.

[Dellboy]

You can't fold PF to a min 4-bet. Call and play for set value.

Miss your set - then check/fold

[chinz]

Originally Posted by Dellboy

You can't fold PF to a min 4-bet. Call and play for set value.

Miss your set - then check/fold

He doesn't have the odds to call just for set value, if it's $4 more and Hero only has about $40 behind there... You have to at least check/shove every flop (or bet the turn if checked back) with no Q, K or A if you call preflop. That is because if AK cbets it, he is committed to call a shove.

I'd rather fold preflop... Min 4bets look scary.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by Colossos159

This is when villain is an unknown. Versus a table maniac i'm getting it in on flop.

That way you are either losing maximum to bigger pairs or winning minimum versus AK (unless opponent is an idiot and cbetting 100% in 4bet pots).

If he were an aggressive regular on button or sb, I might get it in preflop... but in this case I'd just fold.

My reasoning behind shoving over 4bets blind vs. blind is that most aggressive regulars have AK and AQ (sometimes TT) in their 4betting range, and if we assume he'd (have air and) fold something like 15% of the time, we are having pretty good odds against his range.

This tho requires that you have been 3betting them a lot, if you are 3betting something like 5% preflop, I can't see how shoving JJ with full stacks could ever be profitable.

------------------

EDIT:
Answers to OPs questions:
1) You should have folded it preflop, regardless of your position. What does position matter in 4bet pots? I don't really see any reason to never flat a 4bet, unless you have AA and are very certain that villain has bluff and will cbet the flop...
2) You should NEVER lead out on the flop, because the only way you are getting value from something worse (AK... maybe something like TT sometimes?) is when you check-shove and he is committed to call.

Other thing about that HH is his betsizing; first he min4bets preflop, which most of the time means AA/KK (ok, it could really be just about anything...). Then when he leads out on the flop, his range is very polarized to air, KK or AA. If he had AK, it really wouldn't make any sense that he bets big here, he should just take a free turn card. But once again, he could be thinking "omgomg onoez, my AK missed this flop, I better bet big to maximize my FE"

[Dellboy]

Originally Posted by chinz

He doesn't have the odds to call just for set value, if it's $4 more and Hero only has about $40 behind there... You have to at least check/shove every flop (or bet the turn if checked back) with no Q, K or A if you call preflop. That is because if AK cbets it, he is committed to call a shove.

I'd rather fold preflop... Min 4bets look scary.

Of course he has the odds there's 16 in the pot and only 4 more to call. That's 4-1 to start with.

Then with the knowledge that the opponent has a big pair ( most probably ) you gonna get paid of 90% of the time for his full stack which is another $40.

So for a $4 investment you stand to win $56 14-1 total odds

you only need 8-1 odds so there's plenty of "odds" to call and set mine.