Value shove this river - awkward spot

[Belwar]

2nd orbit at the table. My 2nd hand at the table -- I had stacked a shortstack on the first orbit with AQs all-in PF.
No reads and I didn't have any stats on the villain yet.
*Note the overbet on turn and pot bet on river?
Value shove this river?


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($66)
Hero ($61.50)
SB ($115.65)
BB ($10.50)
UTG ($50)
MP ($58.70)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T, A.
3 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, SB calls $1.50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($4) 7, 9, J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($4) A (2 players)
SB bets $7, Hero calls $7.

River: ($18) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $18, Hero ???

[no eff eks]

Without knowing anything about the villain I think a shove is a bit thin here. If you'd been at the table for a full orbit you should at least be able to tell if he's an obvious moron.

[mxrider]

not sure if there is a flushdraw on this or not because I can't see the suits. I'm guessing that is why the question is being asked????

[given1982]

I shove this every time. He will have backdoor spades or QT almost never, and he may have trouble releasing sets or even good aces.

[loltrickedu]

for starters you need to c-bet, this will give you a much better read on the rest of the hand. I like a flat call because you lost gaining information on the flop.

[Belwar]

Thanks for all the replies.

I shoved, villain called, and showed A5 for a very weak top pair. After the hand, I was second guessing myself because the 8s is a terrible card for me as it completes the flop OESD, and the turn flush draw simultaneously.

Originally Posted by loltrickedu

for starters you need to c-bet, this will give you a much better read on the rest of the hand. I like a flat call because you lost gaining information on the flop.

This is an absolutely terrible flop to CBet. This flop hits a cold callers range much harder than mine. CBetting inflates the pot with a marginal hand. I have a gutter and a backdoor FD, and am happy to give a free card in position with little money invested.

If I CBet and he calls, what do you learn? does he have TP, 2 pair, a set, a flush draw, a straight draw, a combo draw, overs with a GS, air?
The turn is unlikely to improve my hand - are you going to fire a second barrel? So we check and fold to his river bet (which he should do with his entire range).

I contend you learn nothing with a CBet here and should check these coordinated boards behind.

[Trikkur]

Let me explain why a cbet here isn't really that bad. Since you are in position it means you get to control how the turn plays out, which is going to be very relevant. Let's look at it like this.

You cbet flop and he raises. - You fold - no worries you didn't have that great of a hand

You cbet flop and he folds - Ok pretty standard, you took down the money in the pot on a pretty scary board where you don't have that great of equity. we can't complain.

you cbet flop and he calls. This is where the discussion really starts. Let's say you cbet and he calls.

Turn is a 2-7,9,J non-heart. Now you can check behind the turn and look for your gutter plus A and possibly pick off a river bet or get a river value bet from him.

Turn is a 8,A - Now you probably have the best hand and you can either pot control it or value bet it depending on your opponents tendencies etc. I'd lean towards value betting though.

Turn is a T/Q/K/heart - You can now either bet to represent or check because you just picked up a lot of equity. I would probably bet the K to represent and check the other cards and try to hit my double gutshot/flushdraw/or maybe randomly good with my T.

[Belwar]

Trikkur:
If you're CBetting this flop, then you're basically CBetting 100% of your range (at least ip) and I think this is a leak and easily exploitable. This is a great flop to CR with air (as well as made hands and big draws) because villain can have such a large range of hands and we're likely to have exactly what we have ... nada.

How much do we love our AJ/KJ on this flop? Is there more merit to pot controlling with AJ/KJ and going for a delayed CBet? Perhaps, but I still say checking behind AT is better than CBetting this wet board. CBetting boards with 3 to a str8 + FD + a myriad of GS is just bad imo.

I wouldn't like on overpair on this flop (QQ+) and would fold to a lot of resistance.

^^

[TheDeKay]

I really like your line here and I don't think, that he has a flush (or do you have seen him overbetting /w a flushdraw), so shoving the river is fine.