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Old 06-15-2009, 02:58 PM
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Default 25nl 4max - Weird River Spot Against Fish

Villain is actually a lot more like a typical 6-max AP reg-fish than a 4max reg-fish... playing something like 37/11/1.4 over 200 hands (that's what I have now, but this was earlier in the session and we were on 2 tables... his stats didn't change much over the session though).

We had played a couple medium sized pots against each other and he seemed really stupid. He's potted out on the river in a pretty obvious nuts/nothing spot (I snap-folded my whiffed draw that I'd checked back on the turn). Later I overbet the river on a super coordinated board with the nuts, he tank/folded what I'm assuming was definitely worse than top two.

Stage #1480039571: Holdem No Limit $0.25, $0.05 ante - 2009-06-15 04:47:19 (ET)
Table: CHINO (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - UNDREAM ($58.02 in chips)
Seat 4 - LOVEKILLERS ($23.21 in chips)
Seat 1 - --THELIONS123 ($61.45 in chips)
--THELIONS123 - Ante $0.05
UNDREAM - Ante $0.05
LOVEKILLERS - Ante $0.05
LOVEKILLERS - Posts small blind $0.10
--THELIONS123 - Posts big blind $0.25
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to UNDREAM [4c 10s]
UNDREAM - Raises $0.75 to $0.75
LOVEKILLERS - Calls $0.65
--THELIONS123 - Calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [6d 7s 10h]
LOVEKILLERS - Checks
--THELIONS123 - Bets $0.75
UNDREAM - Raises $3.40 to $3.40
LOVEKILLERS - Folds
--THELIONS123 - Calls $2.65
*** TURN *** [6d 7s 10h] [Ks]
--THELIONS123 - Checks
UNDREAM - Bets $5.20
--THELIONS123 - Calls $5.20
*** RIVER *** [6d 7s 10h Ks] [10d]
--THELIONS123 - Checks
UNDREAM - Bets $10.60
--THELIONS123 - All-In(Raise) $52.05 to $52.05

I bet really small on the river since his hand looked fairly weak and I wanted him to call.... then he ships and I'm like wtf. He's fairly new to me at this point, but I know he's bad. Never seen him make any bluffs, just played fairly passively and dumb. Cry/call/fold?
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Old 06-15-2009, 03:50 PM
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I fold, due to past history - passive, you haven't seen him bluff etc.. he might be trying to push you off a missed draw but it seems doubtful. what kind of hands has he seen you play? have you been betting all streets into him before? and have you won a lot of non showdown pots? Like if you've been playing fairly tight and firing all streets I can see him calling you down with a T and then trying to get you to call with a K or something. I think the kicker is no good here
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Old 06-15-2009, 04:34 PM
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I think preflop is a fold, even 3-handed on the button with antes. The flop raise is thin for value (unless he donks out on every flop or something). The turn bet is super thin. I think river is a fold.
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Old 06-15-2009, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by given1982 View Post
I think preflop is a fold, even 3-handed on the button with antes.
I fold this hand a lot, but I raise anything from the button just in case I get to show down hands like T4o even though I fold them usually. I'm only raising to 3bb, I've got position on a fish and a very tight tag... I dunno seems fine to me.

As or bust_it_out's questions... I don't think he's ever seen me take this kind of line before making really small bets and playing my hand really straight forward. He knows I'll c-bet air and give up, and has seen me double barrel but I don't know when. That's about all the info I can think of.
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Old 06-15-2009, 05:50 PM
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I'd snap fold here on the river. Fish love to check to you in position on the river when you've shown aggression for two streets, slow playing their hand. At this point, you have a bluff catcher. His line looks like 89 or a made full house by the river. If you had AT, I'd consider possibly, but your 4 kicker is just too weak to consider a call.
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Old 06-15-2009, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no eff eks View Post
I fold this hand a lot, but I raise anything from the button just in case I get to show down hands like T4o even though I fold them usually. I'm only raising to 3bb, I've got position on a fish and a very tight tag... I dunno seems fine to me.

As or bust_it_out's questions... I don't think he's ever seen me take this kind of line before making really small bets and playing my hand really straight forward. He knows I'll c-bet air and give up, and has seen me double barrel but I don't know when. That's about all the info I can think of.
I guess he could be perceiving your line as weakness and then trying to steal the pot but taking that into consideration I'd still fold
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:59 PM
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Ok I see a lot of people saying I'd fold here but nobody says why nor what type of range can the fish be doing this with?

Lets see he flats preflop, PP's 22-99 and maybe some SC's and AQ AJ KQ KJ KT QJ QT JT type hands. I think AK even a passive fish will 3b this deep pre flop. He might be getting tricky with something like AA or KK too but unlikely and I think he would probably 3b TT - QQ pre too. But this is the range without knowing the player that I would think he could be playing for a raise OOP and with other player behind, might be even tighter than that if he has any positional sense at all.

[FLOP] $2.25

The flop comes down 67Tr and he leads out for $0.75 making the pot $3.00 you reraise to $3.40??? the hand history is not very clear here but 89s can definitely be in his range but that, sets and better 10's are the only hands that are beating you at the moment, if he had 89 or a set wouldn't he reraise again here? would he risk a scare card to hit the board and ruin his action? It all comes down to what you've seen him do, how did he play draws before? and how did he play the nuts? You can certainly slowplay a strong hand in this flop but there are so many cards that can ruin your action that I'm not sure it is the best play.

[TURN] $9.05 POT
The Ks falls and you bet again, here I think I would check behind and take the free card, I don't hink he has a spade FD here all that often unless he floated with something like overs ss, how often does he fold to cbet? that would be a useful stat to know here, because we can assign a wider or narrower range to him on the turn based on how often he floats.
Once he calls the flop, now I would expect him to try to get value of his set/straight and raise you on the turn but he is a passive fish so all can happen here.
Although as I say I would preffer to check behind here and pickup maybe a river bluff from him, if you choose to bet I think you should make your bet a little bigger, you're giving any decent draw odds to call you.

[RIVER] $19.45
Great card for your hand, you hit trips on the river and he checks to you and you go for a small value bet little over half the pot to (I think) try to extract some value of a K or maybe even a 7 though your betsize compared to the way you played the nuts in the pot you previously described so he can judge you for weaker than you really are. What you should think here before you bet is, what do I want to accomplish with this bet? and what will I do if i get reraised? your decision for the river should be made before you bet so it simplifies the process.

Honestly I think he has the case T more often than not and you should fold because all other T's beat your kicker, maybe he has a slowplayed monster too and sometimes he will show up with a total bluff. I think AK will call but more than that will 3b preflop OOP. Since you're so deep and only have $10 in the pot the decision is rather easy you need to fold. If the stacks were shallower you had a pretty easy call in the same spot. Is your opponent good enough to think you know this? From the way you describe him no, so more often then not he will showdown the nuts here I think.

I'm kinda sleepy so hopefully this will all make sense, if not... well give me a shout and I will try to explain my sleepy thought process when I wake up!

Take it easy and GL at the tables.
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Old 06-16-2009, 01:32 AM
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I see his range on the river as Tx, a flopped straight, and air. Nothing else really makes sense to me. Since I don't know how often he's going to have air I agree with everyone else that it's a fold... and that's what I did.

Obviously he showed 9s7s and I cried myself to sleep... just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy for folding this.

As for checking back the turn... why? If I do that I'm turning my hand into a bluff catcher when I don't think I need to. He's going to have Kx very very rarely and his range for donking small on the flop is pretty weak compared to my pair of tens. I like another value bet, and I'd probably fold to any aggression.

On the river I'm obviously value betting, but I viewed his range as so dominated by middling pairs that I felt I needed to bet small to have a chance of being called... getting raised wasn't all that big of a deal honestly as I figured it was a pretty clear fold if he shipped.
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Old 06-16-2009, 06:48 AM
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Haha, nice. Before you have that read, he has a better T or 98 like 90% of the time here, so no, you're not crazy for folding this.

I think the real question is what you would do if this hand happened again. I think I would fold -.- (weaktight tagfish)
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Old 06-16-2009, 10:59 AM
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Turn value bet seems super marginal but I assume you know this guy's game pretty well. I'm suprised he turned his hand into a bluff here (FWIW I 100% agree with those who said fold). Such a retarded play by him given your range after betting the riv is probably pretty polarised (or isn't it?).

Btw how could he have 9s7s with the 7s on the flop. Was it 7 of another suit?
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