A tale of 2 Jacks

[nawhead]

I do this with JJ...

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($4.58)
MP3 ($2.66)
Hero (CO) ($6.50)
Button ($1.58)
SB ($5)
BB ($6.29)
UTG ($6.26)
UTG+1 ($1.39)
MP1 ($2)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J, J
5 folds, Hero bets $0.17, 1 fold, SB raises to $0.55, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.70, SB raises to $5 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $3.45 | Rake: $0




BECAUSE.... I do this with JJ...

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($4.75)
UTG ($7.10)
Hero (UTG+1) ($6.84)
MP1 ($5.46)
MP2 ($2.05)
MP3 ($5.31)
CO ($7.80)
Button ($1.85)
SB ($5.53)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J, J
1 fold, Hero bets $0.17, 3 folds, CO raises to $0.40, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.40, CO calls $1

Flop: ($2.87) 4, 2, 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $2.87, CO calls $2.87

Turn: ($8.61) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $2.57 (All-In), CO calls $2.57

River: ($13.75) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $13.75 | Rake: $0.91

Results:
Hero had J, J (two pair, Queens and Jacks).
CO had K, K (two pair, Kings and Queens).
Outcome: CO won $12.84


This doesn't seem optimal for some reason...

I think I can do better. Hard to do worse.

[ShoveOrFold]

Hand 1 is bad. You are turning your JJ into a bluff if you are 4betting and then folding. If you aren't 4bet/calling off with JJ (which I don't recommend at 5nl), you shouldn't be 4betting in the first place. If you get 3bet with JJ, I think you are best off just calling it and proceeding with caution. Whether you want to stack off on a low board, is all up to how your villain plays.

Again 2nd hand, I don't understand your point for 4betting with JJ. You aren't going to be folding out any better, and I don't think you will get called by worse, and even when you do, you are OOP and an overcard is going to run on the board a high % of the time. I don't really understand the pot size lead on that low flop. If you want to get calls from smaller PPs that are still overs like 99, you should be betting smaller and than shoving the turn. Also, betting smaller will give AK a chance to bluff.

That board of all low cards is probably one of the best non J boards since you can get action from TT or 99 or AK if they decided to peel flop, but your best sizing is pretty bad.

All your problems start preflop. Quit overplaying JJ preflop. Its going to put you in a shit ton of awkward spots when on the flop when an overcard comes (esp when you are OOP), and stacking off with JJ preflop at 5nl, is definitely not optimal.

[given1982]

Hand 1 is terrible. 4bet/folding JJ makes no sense. 4betting that big with the intention of folding to a 5bet is awful with any hand. This is a clear call if villain's shoving range is KK+, AK.

Hand 2 is probably terrible also, but more villain dependent, and you didn't tell us anything about villain.

[urbansprawler]

Hand 1: 4-bet/folding JJ is fucking ridonkulous. Stick with this hand vs the complete idiots or fold it to the 3-bet (or setmine).

Hand 2: Like given said, this is also probably terrible but I can definitely see this as a viable line versus a lot of the donks at this level.

[nawhead]

Thanks for the replies. I just needed to hear this stuff vocalized again.

Believe it or not, I didn't always play JJ like this, but with an extended break and cashing a bunch out and moving down then donking around with play money where any PP > 88 = pure profit, I've just sort of been playing really odd trying to get settled again. Ok enough with lame excuses.

Hand 1 was an oopsy because I wasn't going to commit preflop with JJ. In retrospect, villain was playing taGGRO like trying to double barrel whiffed AK on a super dry board a few hands earlier, so I felt my equity was alright against him. I just chickened out, really. I just didn't feel like flipping against him.

Hand 2, I was playing tight, villain was playing like 2 points tighter. He never 3 bet before. So I was 70% sure he had the OP when he flatted my 4bet. But this time I 4bet because I had been raising a lot getting a lot of real hands in a row, so I felt any villain should rate to 3 bet me slightly weaker. So big pot, great flop for JJ, I've got about 100bb behind. I'm about 30% in the good here in my mind. Better make sure I get all the money in the few times I'm ahead here before a scare card comes. That's basically how the hand went down in my head.

[nawhead]

So I'm mulling over this hand, and I don't like how limited my options seem in my own mind. I have 100bb behind but I feel like I have 30. 4bet pot, right obvious, but who says? Why can't I try to valuebet $1 down. Pot sized bets in a single raised pot, there's a reason for potting, but in a 4bet pot, I'm just reverse value towning myself and not allowing any move to manuever. I'm 98% sure villain is not on a drawing hand, so there's no reason for these huge shutout bets. I just want to get value from smaller pairs that might have 3bet light and got stubborn.

My play feels forced and unncessarily heavy handed.

[couriermike]

Let's talk about AK and QQ... is a good 2+2 thread about 3-bet, 4-bet, and shoving ranges at the micros. The consensus was that even though getting aipf with QQ or AK is not going to be a winner, it's still a profitable play if you factor in all the folds you pick up from light 3-bettors.

In hand 1 I like calling or folding. In hand 2 you just got dealt a second best hand.

My play feels forced and unncessarily heavy handed.

Dialing it back and learning to be selectively aggressive is really hard, but it is important, especially at the micros with all the loose-passive players. In any case, I kinda relate to what you're saying because when I started playing poker I played the Snyder Poker Tournament Formula and was a total spewtard in cash games for quite a while. (I'm not saying you are, just that I often also felt like my play was 'unnecessarily heavy-handed'.)

[urbansprawler]

Thanks a lot for the link, mike, I've been thinking about this thing a lot lately and how to incorporate flatting into my game plan.

[nawhead]

Originally Posted by urbansprawler

Thanks a lot for the link, mike, I've been thinking about this thing a lot lately and how to incorporate flatting into my game plan.

Wow 2P2'ers are the smart. That's an amazing thread. All the microstakers are becoming nitty and disillusioned with AK, awesome (oops jumped to conclusion... page 2 is putting up a good fight). But JJ is not mentioned, so I guess I'm still a donk... damn.

[chinz]

BTW one thing that I don't understand about some micro-grinders' thinking...

I was once watching my friend play NL50 6max and in two ~similar spots he decided to 4bet QQ but not 4bet with AKs. I really don't understand why people feel more happy about 4betting with QQ than AK... I think it derives from the fact that QQ is a slight favorite against AK, but I still don't understand it.

If we assume that their range to continue (against our 4b) is only QQ+ and AK, then AKs has 42% equity but QQ only has 40% equity. More importantly, AK has blockers, which significantly increases our folding equity, because that removes half of KK+ permutations and a lot of AK permutations (too lazy to do the math, it's 7AM and I've been up almost 20 hours... think you got the idea already).

-> AKs (and AKo too) is a better hand to shove than QQ. We have much more folding equity and roughly the same equity (AKs is slightly better, AKo slightly worse) against their calling range.

When the game gets really shorthanded (like 3-4 players) or stacks get below 70bb, QQ starts actually getting stronger, just because pfai ranges get wider and start including hands that QQ dominate. But that's not the case when playing 6max micros, where [QQ+, AK] is somewhat realistic range for people to stack off after 3betting.