positional range

[FeckMyBankroll]

a few general questions here really. I am trying to do a lot of work with constructing ranges for players to help with hand reading.

obv better players know that the closer you get to the button the more of their hands they'll be playing. What % of hands would you apply to each position for a tag? (would this differ for a lag?

Now for fish, would you say that most fish play the same hands in any position? Or.... follow the above, but just not as religiously?

[urbansprawler]

Fish = Position is bullshit, i call.
TAG = Position is king, I will not play speculatively out of position.
LAG = Position is important, but outplaying your opponent is also important. I will play some speculative hands out of position.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by urbansprawler

TAG = Position is king, I will not play speculatively out of position.
LAG = Position is important, but outplaying your opponent is also important. I will play some speculative hands out of position.

If we compare good TAG and LAG (something like 20/18 and 30/25) their UTG and UTG+1 ranges should be close to similar. The biggest difference in ranges is in CO and BTN ranges. LAGs might be also more inclined to flat/3bet preflop raises a little more from position.

There might be a few more suited aces, but that's about the only difference (of course this is just a generalisation, everyone has unique style/ranges).

[urbansprawler]

I think you're confusing "good TAG" with sLAG

[chinz]

Originally Posted by urbansprawler

I think you're confusing "good TAG" with sLAG

I'd call something like 17-23 vpip TAG, above that starts to get slightly loose and below 17 is not TAG anymore, it's just huge nit.

EDIT:
Hmm, actually as I'm giving it more thought, maybe those 22-23 VPIP guys are slightly too loose to be called TAGs anymore. F it, I don't know! But I'd still call 20/17 guys TAG.

[FeckMyBankroll]

so like whats their ratio of vpip by position?

UTG ??%
MP ??%
CO ??%
BTN ??%

[given1982]

Just look at your HUD. Then you can look at the individual villains' stats by position instead of trying to work off stereotypes.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by given1982

Just look at your HUD. Then you can look at the individual villains' stats by position instead of trying to work off stereotypes.

Yeah, but if you have eg. 200 hand sample, you really don't have any trustworthy positional VPIP stats yet... Maybe you can barely see if the villain is positionally aware at all, but nothing else.

[FeckMyBankroll]

Originally Posted by chinz

Yeah, but if you have eg. 200 hand sample, you really don't have any trustworthy positional VPIP stats yet... Maybe you can barely see if the villain is positionally aware at all, but nothing else.

1000% Agreed.

Although this figure probably converges much quicker then winrate its still pretty useless over the sample size that I have in my database.

I am only looking for ugly estimations for the player types mentioned, I have some idea but just looking for a sanity check rly.

Thanks

[couriermike]

you might try, for opening ranges, for somebody positionally aware,

btn = 1.5-2x vpip
co = vpip
mp = 2/3 vpip
utg = 1/2 vpip

for a tag, i would guess

utg 10%: pairs, big aces
mp 15%: pairs, big aces, suited broadway
co 22%: pairs, broadway, suited aces, some sc's
btn 35%: pairs, all aces, broadway, sc's, sg's, maybe suited kings

Trikkur said in a video once that a tag's vpip is usually their co range.

Do you think it's worth it to construct ranges for fish except starting postflop? If they're like 40/10, we'd always be ahead of their range preflop.