Micro Stakes Win Rate Question

[SixfootSeven]

I just wanted to ask a question about winrate. I have played 35k hands in 2NL and 5NL 6 max and Im just breakeven. I've only played online poker for about 2 months now so I know I have a TON to still learn. (Goal is 25-50NL)

I deposited 50 bucks (FTP)and I have been playing on that same 50 now for the past two months...I have never went broke, Not even close...I ran that 50 up to 130 but then spewd it away over a 2 week period playing to loose and gambling to much. However, with my bonus Im back to 120 again. Is this pretty normal starting out? the up down up down...huge varience or is it just my game? is it the level?? Is it ME??

Did some of you micro stakes guys experiece the same thing?? I'm I the only one??

How long did it take some of you guys to really start clocking good sessions and grinding out nice wins and being consistant at the mirco level.

I have won as much as 25-35 dollars in a day at 2NL only to donk it off at 5NL in a few days...but I always bounce back make it up at 2NL and go back and get my ass kicked at 5NL. To me there really seems no difference!!! I dont seem to be playing different.

I use poker tracker to check my leaks.... my stats are 24/18/2 Position wise I look ok....28 from the button 15 from UTG and its drops like its supposed to.

I blind steal around 25%. I raise the shit out of the Button and Im still aggressive in the cutoff, if checked to Me. My blind play needs to be tighten up but Im to the point...Im only playing the cards I would play UTG.

Im pretty much playing ABC poker...3 betting when I have a chance and C-betting my Raises around 80-85 % of the time. I think Im one of a handful of guys that actually 3bet this level at (FTP).

I know one thing I need to work on right now and its TILT!!!! it still kinda drives me nuts the donk suckouts and the bullshit play...but IM to the point now as long as Im getting my money in Good and making good shoves when Im 60% or better and Im getting sucked out On...I just keep telling myself I did the right thing....nothing you can do...just keep hammering them and hammering them ...and it will be ok.


Thanks guys

[Lambik]

Hi,

Your post looks a post I could have made a couple of months after I picked up 6m NLHE, and I think I can give you a couple of pointers that will drastically improve your results and the way you think about poker.

First of all, have you got rakeback? Microstakes FTP without rakeback is just burning money. If you haven't got rakeback, check out a couple of the rakeback offers on this site.

Second, you're probably too loose and aggressive for 2 and 5NL. I know you will think that I'm talking complete and utter rubbish, but trust me. You're talking about relentless blind stealing on the button and in the cutoff, hammering on the opposition, playing the same range in the blinds as you do UTG, 3betting when you have the chance (I assume you mean that you're 3betting light a lot?), playing 24/18 etc. That's too loose and it's the reason why you're breaking even, even though these things might be profitable at other stakes (wouldn't know about that, but they might).

To "cure" these leaks, or whatever you want to call them, take a closer look at a couple of Trikkur's videos on this site:
Trikkur17 | 50NL Holdem - Beating Micro Stakes No Limit
Trikkur22 | 20NL Holdem - Playing TAG to beat Micro Stakes
http://www.pokertrikz.com/videos/85-...inning-player/

I highly recommend these two (edit: three) vids. Don't watch them once, don't watch them twice, watch them again and again. They have changed my game completely.

Third, as for tilt, just take it easy. I've never really struggled with tilt, but I tend to shrug my shoulders more than the average person.

[Vantek]

I blind steal around 25%. I raise the shit out of the Button

25% blind steal is pretty tight. It's not even the full range of any suited onegapper any ace any two face cards (which is 28-30% and which I'd consider 100% straightforward).

my stats are 24/18/2

That's absolutely crazy with blind steal of 25%. With a blind steal of 25%, your total stats should be something like 15/12. With overall stats of 24/18 your blind steal should be like 40%. You are wayyy too flat positionally.

As a starting player you should rather be tight, with overall stats of 14/11...16/13. Fold KQs ATs AJo UTG, fold KJs A9s ATo UTG+1. Raise any suited onegapper any ace any two face cards on the button (you can drop some of the offsuit aces and face cards if you feel it's too much). Raise any suited nogapper any two suited face cards any suited ace A9o+ KJo+ QJo+ in the CO.

An AF of 2 is also slightly low for a starting player. Do not call out of spite (how ironic, you are trying to fight back at people by giving them money) or curiosity. Bet bet bet fold when they raise. Snapfold AA if a loose-passive fish calls your flop and minraises turn. If he is just calling however, make big bets three streets with top pair good kicker.

Do not cbet very coordinated boards.

Board: 9c Kh 2d
Hand 0: 85.663% { AA }
Hand 1: 14.337% { JJ-22, AQs-A2s, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, AQo-A8o, KJo+, QJo, JTo } (average loose flatting range)

Board: Tc 9c 8c
Hand 0: 62.076% { AA }
Hand 1: 37.924% { JJ-22, AQs-A2s, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, AQo-A8o, KJo+, QJo, JTo }

[chinz]

Especially at more passive nanostakes, you're AF should be higher and it would probably be better to have a smaller gap between the VPIP and PFR, whether you're limping or flatcalling a lot, please stop it.

You should probably have a wider valuerange (esp. against people not folding to 3bets) for your 3bets, but you shouldn't really 3bet as light as you would at higher stakes. At NL50 or NL100 I think you can profitably 3bet 8-10% but at nanos that would probably be just losing play.

My VPIPs are 33% from the button and 12% from EP. I don't think you really should be playing any more hands from UTG than that, especially when a lot of pots get multiway and you have less experience in postflop play. My steal-% seems to be 41%.

[urbansprawler]

I don't think the problem is playing too loose, hyper-aggressive will destroy 2NL and 5NL. I know from personal experience.

[couriermike]

Is this pretty normal starting out? the up down up down...huge varience or is it just my game?

That's been my experience too.

How long did it take some of you guys to really start clocking good sessions and grinding out nice wins and being consistant at the mirco level.

Honestly not really there yet.

When I started out I spent alot of time learning about poker and all the rules to play right, play tight, play aggressive, ABC etc, and it's all good advice. But now I think that the consistency will never happen till we start thinking in terms of hands and ranges and the real rule of poker: getting worse hands to call and better hands to fold (btw 'better' here doesn't usually mean good, it can mean c-betting air to fold out third pair for example). In any case I feel ya, OP, GL.

[SixfootSeven]

Thanks guys for all great advice, them vids are fantastic,

Lambik---I will keep watching them 4-5 more times. I need to check into rakeback and how that works? if you have an existing account can you still get rakeback? I kind of agree with you about the to loose and aggressive statement for 2-5NL, fish play back way to much call with nothing way to much and catch luck way to often they never seem to want to fold even after two streets of pot sized c-bets,with bottom pair and gutshots.

Your right Vantex--- Im way to "flat" positionally, Im going to "revise" my starting hand selection and try and keep it between 14/11 16/13. I think you hit the nail on the head with this one!!! Dont call out of "spite" or curiosity, I often try and catch the donk-fish like this....and sometimes I stack them often times, Im just in there gamling with them and not playing tight/aggressive. I will work on using the line bet..bet..bet...fold to a raise.

Chinz--- I been working on the gap between my VPIP and PFR. I flat call way more then I limp, and it seems to come in late Pos vs. fish that play ATC, because I dont know what to put them on until I see the flop. Ill work on this tho..My utg is 18% so tho not to crazy I still can tighten up while working on my steal %.

[chinz]

I flat call way more then I limp, and it seems to come in late Pos vs. fish that play ATC, because I dont know what to put them on until I see the flop.

You don't really (almost) ever flatcall in nano/microstakes 6max NL, except the most obvious setmining spots. Actually, I'd say that if you're playing smaller than NL20 and a losing/breakeven player, you should never flatcall for any other reason than to setmine.

Someone here might disagree, but w/e just state your opinions.

Originally Posted by SixfootSeven

My utg is 18% so tho not to crazy I still can tighten up while working on my steal %.

18 VPIP from UTG is crazy. Even winning 35 VPIP LAGs don't have that high numbers. I tried to come up with a (very) loose UTG range and still couldn't get past 15%...

Very good postflop player could probably profitably open that 15% range... 12% range is somewhat similar to mine (when it's 6 handed, if table is 4-5 handed I start opening any suited ace and maybe some connectors).

If you're struggling at the micros, I would suggest being VERY tight from the UTG, possibly even as tight as the 9 vpip range suggests.

But I'm really just a preflop donkey in 6max games... I'm open for any comments on these ranges.


----

Ranges I made up:

9 VPIP:


12 VPIP:


15 VPIP:




EDIT:
You could include KJo and ATo in those 2 later graphs, at least the last one... but I'm too lazy to take new pics.

[nawhead]

Really, all this stat whoring and blind stealing won't make you a winning player, it'll only make you not a noob. The thing that will leap your game forwards is thinking about the game better than your opponents who play a robotic game, whatever that robotic game is (from donkey loose passive/aggressive to stat perfect TAG).

The easiest way to get to that point however, is to go through the stages from loose, to tight, to balanced. Assume right now you play too loose for your skill level. I'd bet money on it. Just tighten up. Stop raising every sooted connecter in position; you don't know how to play it correctly postflop anyway. Raise and bet your strong hands. Get good at betting for value. Understand what kind of hands pay you off in what kind of situations.

Strip your game to a nitty core. It's batting practice. Again, and again. Hit that layup everytime. It's boring, sure. But it just works. We're learning real ABC (not some spewy breakeven 24/18 "sorta lag" homebrew style). 11/9 TAG. You're "top pair, good or best kicker" guy. Predictable, obvious. Profitable, not sexy, maybe not even optimal, just profitable period.

Learn it, and learn patience. Keeping betting TPTK even though "nobody pays you off" (they are, your memory's just selective). Don't tilt. Keep folding KJs to a raise UTG. Don't tilt. Fold 30 hands in a row because it's just not there. Don't tilt. Resist the urge to "rep" AA with 55 becuase you've folded 30 hands in a row. Do not tilt. Bet TPTK and lose stacks to sets. DON'T TILT. Bet, bet, bet and lose to rivered flushes. DO NOT TILT.

You will show a profit. Or you are lying to yourself during hands. Or losing patience. Or Tilting.

If you have the patience to do this, you'll have to patience to go beyond this stage I think.

Anyway, I'd say it takes 1-2 years to beat other beginners through sheer hand selection and patience. 3-6 years to start beating players who hand select and have patience. And another 5-10 years on top of that to become masterful to be able to just... EARN.

[Vantek]

Really, all this stat whoring and blind stealing won't make you a winning player

Well, yes it will, it should make you about $3-4/hour ^^