Turn a straight but fear a possible better straight

[nawhead]

I like how chinz and given is thinking one level of aggression higher.

Most people go for the minimum level of aggression required, or look for the cheapest way to bluff for their # of outs:

b = 1 bet aggress (for 6-2 outs)
c/r = 2 bet aggress (for 8 outs+)
b/3b = 3 bet aggress (for monsters)

Vs Chinz or more aggressive player:

b = 1 bet aggress (air!)
c/r = 2 bet aggress (4-6 outs?)
b/3b = 3 bet aggress (8 outs)
??? = for monsters?

[AdrienD]

Originally Posted by nawhead

I like how chinz and given is thinking one level of aggression higher.

Most people go for the minimum level of aggression required, or look for the cheapest way to bluff for their # of outs:

Oh I don't look for cheapest way to bluff...
I look for best risk/reward.

I just think that villain won't cbet this board that often and he won't bluffraise this board with air (unlike dry Q-A hi boards), so that makes this awsome donkbet spot b/c he's folding all his highcards except good draws and decent pairs.

This is the same range you get him to fold if you check/raise so I don't see any merit to check/raising here.

If the flop was T42 2-tone, I'd like check/raise much more than donkbet b/c villain could peel ace high and other overs + all pairs if you donkbet, but he will fold all his overs and ace highs if you check/raise + if he does call, you can barrel a ton of turns and get him to fold 55-99 + you can 3barrel shove if the 3rd flush card comes on the river which gets him to fold pretty much all his hands except 2pair+(assuming std TAG)

[AdrienD]

Chinz, I think that your donkbetting range is way too strong...
I used to have similar donkbetting range, but you can donkbet bluff all drawy boards that you expect villain to give up on like
589 2tone.
villain will never raise that board as a pure bluff and check/raising there is bad because he will not cbet it often at all so you'll be getting called/shoved on a ton.
It will often go check-check and then on the turn it is much easier for villain to get to showdown if he checked behind a weak pair on flop or turned a pair/draw.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by nawhead

I like how chinz and given is thinking one level of aggression higher.

Actually I usually play draws somewhat passive in position. If they are cbet-bluffing I'm taking it down on the turn anyway and if they have a made hand, I don't get into spots where I have to fold or get it in with bad equity.

Also, position makes it a lot easier to get value when you hit your draws.

[nawhead]

Originally Posted by chinz

Actually I usually play draws somewhat passive in position. If they are cbet-bluffing I'm taking it down on the turn anyway and if they have a made hand, I don't get into spots where I have to fold or get it in with bad equity.

Also, position makes it a lot easier to get value when you hit your draws.

I was assuming OOP. Hard to get value so reason to bluff increases. But I realize this changes when in position.

Originally Posted by AdrienD

Oh I don't look for cheapest way to bluff...
I look for best risk/reward.

Cheap, best risk/reward. Tomato, tomaaato...

J/k. I know you mean you think donkbet is the right play in this particular spot. But I was making a general observation.

[Vantek]

I am actually a big fan of donkbetting (especially in HU), because that seems to confuse a lot of regulars

I have actually also thought about it this way. Namely, when someone donkbets, I have a really hard time figuring out what they have. Ergo, when I donkbet, my opponent will likely also have a really hard time figuring out what I have.

Never got to actually putting it in practice though :P

[Silverthunder]

Originally Posted by chinz

Actually I usually play draws somewhat passive in position. If they are cbet-bluffing I'm taking it down on the turn anyway and if they have a made hand, I don't get into spots where I have to fold or get it in with bad equity.

I don't think that the players that I come across bluff enough on the flop OOP to make it profitable to just call their flop bet.

The line that I love, and I think it is ultra profitable with an OESD or flush draw is to raise the flop, then you miss and they check the turn to you, so you get a free card They have a hand like top pair and they are scared of the set or something..

[podbelski]

Originally Posted by Silverthunder

The line that I love, and I think it is ultra profitable with an OESD or flush draw is to raise the flop, then you miss and they check the turn to you, so you get a free card They have a hand like top pair and they are scared of the set or something..

Okay this is the perfect scenario... What do you usually do if:
1) villain 3bets you on the flop with your draw? Or 3bet AI? Do you happy with that having say a pair+OESD or a naked flushdraw?
2) the villain calls your flop raise but donks 3/4 pot on a blank turn?

[Silverthunder]

Originally Posted by podbelski

Okay this is the perfect scenario... What do you usually do if:
1) villain 3bets you on the flop with your draw? Or 3bet AI? Do you happy with that having say a pair+OESD or a naked flushdraw?
2) the villain calls your flop raise but donks 3/4 pot on a blank turn?

1) we assume he has set (but let's just put 1-2 sets in his range when calc equity)or 2 pair and see if there is anything that we can do that still give us +EV (shoving over his 3 bet included).
2) fold typically unless we can shove and have proper equity. So yeah, we are basically folding.

Extremely unlikely for #1 to happen because the players almost always check the trips & don't 3 bet a draw. We could possibly put one flush draw in his range if the board is 2 tone. This would tend to be a 2 pair hand.

[podbelski]

That means it is better to raise the flops when there is a big chance the opp is missed or have weak holdings relative to the board, i.e. lots of fold equity. And better to flat the cbet if it is more likely he will not fold/slow down.

I'm still having problems distinguishing these spots, at least I'm not sure of it...