NL10 (rush): TT OOP on paired board

[podbelski]

Excuse me for such stakes Do not want to go busto while I'm still refining my playstyle at rush games.

Do you think raising/leading is better at any point postflop? Do you see a river call as played?

On the flop, I checked to use advantage of my relative position and see what others will do, especially the raiser. I decided to flat the first pot bet putting the villain on 3x/5x/flushdraw/Ax gutter/pocket pair lesser than mine. Raising will protect my hand, but I will be more likely valutowned rather than get calls from weaker hands.

Turned K unlikely helped him, what do you think about leading or check-raising?

River IMO is a clear valuebet from him, and I'm putting him mostly on that Ax gutter...

Thx

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG ($4.04)
MP ($10.10)
CO ($19.76)
Button ($4.74)
Hero (SB) ($14.65)
BB ($10)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 10, 10
2 folds, CO calls $0.10, Button bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.35, 1 fold, CO calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.30) 3, 5, 5 (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.30, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.30

Turn: ($3.90) K (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $3.90, Hero calls $3.90

River: ($11.70) A (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5, Hero folds

Total pot: $11.70

[tmiby]

i like the line.

on rush tables I setmine tt,jj and honestly I stopped 4bettting qq too.

One thing I keep saying to me while rushing...."there are better spots". It's true! just wait a minute and you will get even better hands.

cya

[urbansprawler]

I would fold turn.

[chinz]

Button ($4.74)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 10, 10
Button bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.35,

Look mommy, no words!

[given1982]

3bet preflop. I raise/get-it-in on the flop after the limper leads and the PFR folds.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by given1982

3bet preflop. I raise/get-it-in on the flop after the limper leads and the PFR folds.

145bb deep when he pots into 2 people? With 100bb I'd raise/call, but I think that extra 45bb makes it a call.

[urbansprawler]

Originally Posted by chinz

With 100bb I'd raise/call, but I think that extra 45bb makes it a call.

What worse hands would you expect to shove all-in after you raise? Keep in mind this is a multiway flop, CO is not the preflop aggressor, and he full-pot blasts the flop.

Raise/calling vs BTN looks good, vs CO I think you are pwning yourself far too often.

Also not sure how 45bb changes anything, his range is probably still the same. With 100bb you would get odds to call the flop 3b, but this doesn't make raise/calling with 100bb more +EV as compared to raise/folding with 145bb, DUCY?

[chinz]

Originally Posted by urbansprawler

What worse hands would you expect to shove all-in after you raise? Keep in mind this is a multiway flop, CO is not the preflop aggressor, and he full-pot blasts the flop.

Draws. Mostly flushdraws, but also some A high gutshots. Also complete bluffs. This is a board we are (at least should be) raising as a bluff in this situation quite often, so villain could easily be spazz-shoving over our flop raise.

Also not sure how 45bb changes anything, his range is probably still the same. With 100bb you would get odds to call the flop 3b, but this doesn't make raise/calling with 100bb more +EV as compared to raise/folding with 145bb, DUCY?

When he shoves over our bet, we are most likely behind his range, but 100bb deep there's more spazz-shoves and bluffs... and we're also getting better odds. Being 100bb deep also changes his shoving range. 145bb deep makes him much less likely to shove flushdraws on paired boards.

Talking about spazz, If I was the donkbettor here, I could possibly shove A4 of spades for 100bb here, but not for 145bb...

A lot of people are also donkbet-calling hands like 77 here, so it's not like he's always either shoving or folding.

[urbansprawler]

Originally Posted by chinz

Draws. Mostly flushdraws, but also some A high gutshots. Also complete bluffs. This is a board we are (at least should be) raising as a bluff in this situation quite often, so villain could easily be spazz-shoving over our flop raise.

Had villain bet any smaller, I'd tend to agree with you, but betsizing is something that is soooo accurate it's mind-boggling. It's considered a pseudoscience in poker forums, but pay attention to villain sizes and you will find they reveal everything about a player. They are always consistent with a player's basic line of thinking (ie opposite players will make small bets to induce or slowplay monsters; overaggro players will try to make you fold and will bet much more than necessary). It's so important to guard your sizing.

That aside, villain may or may not have lots of bluffs. We have no idea of knowing what kind of player he is, but we can make a couple of assumptions you'll probably agree with:

1) He is more likely to be a passive fish than a spewtard. (ie, more likely to check flushes than bet/shove air)

2) He is more likely to fold bluffs when we raise.

3) He is more likely to flat-call with bluffs as opposed to 3-bet.

When he shoves over our bet, we are most likely behind his range, but 100bb deep there's more spazz-shoves and bluffs... and we're also getting better odds. Being 100bb deep also changes his shoving range. 145bb deep makes him much less likely to shove flushdraws on paired boards.

Talking about spazz, If I was the donkbettor here, I could possibly shove A4 of spades for 100bb here, but not for 145bb...

A lot of people are also donkbet-calling hands like 77 here, so it's not like he's always either shoving or folding.

Raise/calling as one line will be -EV with TT (would you agree?) as 5's have us completely crushed but flushes still have a lot of equity, and there a lot of 5's in villain's range. Keep in mind 5-x has as many as 8 combos, while each suited hand has only one.

Raise/folding seems like the best line here tbh, albeit very cringeworthy. Without any information, I doubt donks (or regs) are going to ship anything but a strong 5 over our raise and will flat-call everything else, giving us max EV.

Maybe calling is best. This could use a stove.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by urbansprawler

Raise/calling as one line will be -EV with TT (would you agree?) as 5's have us completely crushed but flushes still have a lot of equity, and there a lot of 5's in villain's range. Keep in mind 5-x has as many as 8 combos, while each suited hand has only one.

No, I don't. Our hand strenght is so strong that there's probably no -EV flop decision that we could make over random players' donkbet. Even if we just shove 100bb over his bet, it's probably still +EV because he's folding a ton and every now and then calling with worse. That does not mean it's not spew, however.

There's still probably more flushdraws in his range, just because 5x hands seems so unlikely (if he's like 80/10 then it's different of course).

Raise/folding seems like the best line here tbh, albeit very cringeworthy. Without any information, I doubt donks (or regs) are going to ship anything but a strong 5 over our raise and will flat-call everything else, giving us max EV.

I'm raising and actually expecting him just to call most of the time, I am not raising hoping to get shoved on, you are right about that...

But the difference is, ~150bb deep we can make a huge mistake if we raise/fold but we can't really raise/call either.... With 100bb we can raise for value and in that unfortunate case that he shoves, calling it off is still probably around breakeven if not slightly winning play. If he has a hand like A3, 66, straightdraw (maybe even A high gutshot), or FD here I'm expecting him to always either donkbet/call or donkbet/shove, never-ever donkbet/fold.

At least in my experience, players who are limping preflop and donkbetting are the type of guys who are donkbet-calling OOP a lot. Against a TAG regular raising this (unless we have really maniac image) is suicide, but against limp-calling donkbettor or very aggressive good player raise/calling is OK.