Interesting Situation here, would you play it the same way?

[Kleanthes]

Villian is solid, running 13/10 agg. factor 5.75 after 775 hands.
he 3-bets 3% of the time and folds to a 3-bet 62% of the time.


No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($6.06)
UTG ($7.33)
MP ($25.50)
CO ($21.46)
Button ($40.45)
Hero (SB) ($23.66)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q
UTG calls $0.20, MP bets $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, Hero raises $4.70, 2 folds, MP calls $3.80, Button calls $3.80

Flop: ($14.80) 8, 4, 9 (3 players)
Hero bets $18.86 (All-In), MP raises $20.70 (All-In), 1 fold

Turn: ($52.52) 9 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($52.52) 8 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $52.52

[ourfarmpica]

Why you go all in on the flop? IMO a 10$ cbet would have been far enough against 2 villian. You run into an overpair AA or KK or 2 pairs maybe a set, maybe 2 pairs but it has little chance. My line postflop check-raize and if 3bet fold.

[podbelski]

I think your play is ok.

You beat JJ/TT/AK/AQ/QQ on the flop, which are likely in his range. AA/KK/99 are less likely, but you can't do anything about it, the flop is almost perfect for your hand, and you are a favorite vs his range.

You could cbet about halfpot, but I don't think this is crucial (you can't fold), in that situation your overshove might look like a draw/AK, and the opps either like their hands and want to play or will fold to any reasonable bet size.

If you check, the MP will check his overcards, and BTN will likely check his PP, and one of them might hit the turn.

Another thing you could pay attention to is how the villain reacts to 3bets OOP when not folding. Does he call the majority and 4bets KK+? Or flats 99/TT/AQ and 4bets the rest?

And BTW, although the BTN folded the flop this time (seems missed a set), you should take his range into consideration when cbetting.

[chinz]

I don't like preflop 3bet size and I like flop shove even less. 3betting big is right here, but something like $3.80 or so is still enough.

As played (huge 3bet pre) I would bet something very small like $6 on the flop... Since you are committed to shove QQ on any turn after cbetting, you might as well give them opportunity to call cbet with hand like 77 or like AQ of diamonds.

Bad players will have hard time folding any pair (or even something like AQdd, A high, 2 overcards and backdoor flushdraw) when you bet less than half pot, and after you bet $6 there if you get called you can just shove $13 into $27 pot and because they are stupid fish and they're given good odds they can't fold their 77...

When you make that huge 3bet pre and shove the flop into two people, you aren't getting called by worse hands that often imo.

-----

The other problem is that if we 3bet that big pre, I don't think we can fold anymore if UTG+1 shoves... And when 13/10 guy 4bets you after opening 5bb from UTG+1, ladies are no good (at NL20). Not even when you are squeezing with them. Against a player like that (especially when there's a flatcaller) it is absolutely right to 3bet/fold for value preflop with queens, but with your betsizing you simply can't fold after 3betting so much.

Why you go all in on the flop? IMO a 10$ cbet would have been far enough against 2 villian. You run into an overpair AA or KK or 2 pairs maybe a set, maybe 2 pairs but it has little chance. My line postflop check-raize and if 3bet fold.

It doesn't matter if we shove or bet $10, because with betsizes it's clear that we have a hand we're going with all the way. I'd put my money on nit having AA here... (and doing anything else than calling with AA in his spot when you over-3bet squeeze would be bad imo)

[podbelski]

Wow chinz, you are so nitpicky, in a good sense

I have doubts though:

first, yes pre sizing is a bit too high, I would have just potted it (4.20?). And it depends on hero's intentions - if he didn't want to fold to 4bet then I do not see the reason to bet less than $4.

I do not understand why you said it is the best play for UTG+1 to flat 3bet with AA. With hero putting so much he is less likely to 3bet light, so he's not folding, so it is good to put in as much as possible pre. Another thing, by flatting with AA the UTG+1 is giving the BTN odds to setmine, which is not too bad but somewhat risky (getting small extra$ with about 20% risk of losing a stack).

After some thought I agree that flop bet is better to be no more than halfpot, for reasons you mentioned.

And my guess the UTG+1 is on QQ/JJ (cause of preflop call)

[Kleanthes]

UTG+1 had Aces
thank you for thoughts.

[chinz]

Kleanthes, idk if this sounds stupid, but if you make a smaller 3bet and then he's more likely to 4bet his KK+ here to prevent 3rd guy from setmining or calling with medium SCs (and you can fold against this particular opponent's 4bet, it's 100% the right play). So 3betting smaller (in this particular case) has even other merits than not committing yourself on non A/K boards.

I do not understand why you said it is the best play for UTG+1 to flat 3bet with AA. With hero putting so much he is less likely to 3bet light, so he's not folding, so it is good to put in as much as possible pre

With that 3betsizing he actually wants the third guy to call too, as the pot will already be so huge on the flop. Also, people are doing stupid shit like making huge 3bets and still folding to shoves preflop...

Another problem, which is not really as important at these stakes as it will become at higher stakes, is that when you are 3betting more than 20bb you are literally never bluffing. Never. You want to be able to bluff-squeeze in this spot. Even at stakes as low as NL50 I know for a fact that many regulars will notice whether you are squeezing like 15-18bb or over 20bb and understand that the latter is very unlikely to ever be a bluff (so they should just fold even hands as strong as AQ or TT preflop).

[urbansprawler]

Ya, I hate the 3b size. $4 is the most I'd ever make it here, granting some special exceptions.

[Kleanthes]

nice, really informative. Really like your opinion, will test smaller 3-bets in future sessions.... and i really feel good about what you said about betting smaller on the flop too widen the range my opponent could call me with, and then shove ANY turn.....
thx

[urbansprawler]

Originally Posted by chinz

Bad players will have hard time folding any pair (or even something like AQdd, A high, 2 overcards and backdoor flushdraw) when you bet less than half pot, and after you bet $6 there if you get called you can just shove $13 into $27 pot and because they are stupid fish and they're given good odds they can't fold their 77...

This is a good point, I check back a lot after 3-betting halfstacks on boards like 623 with AA or KK if spr's are low and I can shove turn without overbetting the pot too much, if at all. Just a little digression.