NL50 rush: AA OOP in a 3bet pot - scare turn raise?

[podbelski]

The guy snap-called preflop 3bet, then called cbet quite fast, then shoved turn as he was ready to do it. I'm not sure - is it tough/crying call? Can I fold here against unknown (seems weak) player?

Should I bet flop/turn somewhat bigger? I was putting him either on weaker hands that will more likely call me down if I bet less, or on QQ in which case I don't see how can I fold...


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

CO ($94.50)
Button ($63.95)
SB ($47)
Hero (BB) ($50)
UTG ($76.15)
MP ($91.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, A
UTG bets $1.50, 4 folds, Hero raises to $5.25, UTG calls $3.75

Flop: ($10.75) 8, 5, Q (2 players)
Hero bets $7.50, UTG calls $7.50

Turn: ($25.75) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $14.50, UTG raises to $63.40 (All-In), Hero calls $22.75 (All-In)

River: ($100.25) 9 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $100.25 | Rake: $3

[given1982]

The bet-sizing is weird. In a 3bet pot, you need a plan to get all the money in by the river. The only real 2 ways to do this are to 1) bet near-pot on the flop and shove the turn or 2) bet 1/2 pot on all streets. You did something in the middle, which would leave you with a river bet that you can never balance with bluffs.

As played, it's really hard to fold to the turn raise. You're getting better than 3:1, so villain would have to literally never do this with a worse hand for you to be able to fold.

Board: 8h 5h Qs 9c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.909% 40.91% 00.00% 270 0.00 { AdAs }
Hand 1: 59.091% 59.09% 00.00% 390 0.00 { KK-QQ, 99-88 }


Board: 8h 5h Qs 9c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.545% 39.55% 00.00% 261 0.00 { AdAs }
Hand 1: 60.455% 60.45% 00.00% 399 0.00 { QQ, 99-88, AQs, AQo }

[tmiby]

Podbelski, I just wanna help you with some decisions...
I also saw your thread about 50NL rush, AK-hand...

Honestly, don't try anything special on rush tables. 3bet AK pre. This IS for 99% the best play.
Here with the Aces...I give a *** on his timing tells, and I'm pretty sure you should too! pot it on flop and shove turn (its a little over bet, I know.). This is a good line with aces...if he has a set ot whatever, don't care! there are so many worse hands that can call you there: AQ, QJ, TT, draws, KK,.....

This maybe sounds weird or too straight forward...too aggressiv. I agree, if we are playing against a known villain on 6max "normal" poker.

But this is rush game! I found out that people don't care about betsizes. 'Cause they don't have any reads on you (does he cbet big with air or with strong hands?...they just don't know).

I strongly suggest to play a straight forward game on rush tables! bet your strong hands - fold or steal with your weaker hands.

[Nostalgica]

This is a fairly standard/happy call down, if not a complete fistpump. I am not sure about never caring about bet-sizing, that's silly, but essentially you have to stack this off.

[tmiby]

Originally Posted by Nostalgica

I am not sure about never caring about bet-sizing, that's silly, but essentially you have to stack this off.

I'm only talking about cbets on rush tables!
flop pot is 10.75. let's say villain has a Qx hand. Most people ON RUSH TABLES will c/c this. If your cbet is 5 bucks, 8.25 or even 10, doesn't really matter.

That's at least what I've experienced. I don't have my hand histories here...maybe later on I can post different hands, were I played overpairs against villains that called down potsized cbets. sometimes even with 2nd pair!

I guess the following:
on rush tables, some people interpret big cbets as weak. They think that original raiser just wants to get away with it. So they try to make a hero play pretty light.

BTW: sometimes I even overbet on later streets (not cbet). I'm thinking of a special hand where I rivered 2 pair...villain c/c flop and turn. however, as far as I remember I over bet (like 1.5 x pot size) my top two (AK)...villain calls down with Kx type of hand. Of course, this is not my standart play.

To sum up: For me it is easier to get value for my hands on rush tables than it is in 50NL 6max tables. Maybe I'm having a too tight image on normal 6max tables...

[podbelski]

Thx, I must have potted in on the flop and shoved the turn. I started thinking about weaker hands like TT/JJ from which I could have value by betting less, and sets that I maybe somehow will be able to fold to (when they raise).

Then the question is can I look at this flop and say "great flop, I'm not folding no matter what, so potting flop and calling shove/shoving turn", and be sure this is a good easy solution?

Before I cbet, my odds are great against what I suppose to be his range:

Board: 8h 5h Qs
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 76.443% 75.38% 01.06% 33583 472.50 { AdAs }
Hand 1: 23.557% 22.50% 01.06% 10022 472.50 { 88+, AQs+, AQo+ }


His continuation range if I pot the flop:
Board: 8h 5h Qs
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 59.977% 57.59% 02.39% 11403 472.50 { AdAs }
Hand 1: 40.023% 37.64% 02.39% 7452 472.50 { QQ+, 88, AhKh, AQs, AQo }

So, I'm a favorite, then this is a no-brainer? Sorry seems like noob questions

[tmiby]

Originally Posted by tmiby

maybe later on I can post different hands, were I played overpairs against villains that called down potsized cbets. sometimes even with 2nd pair!

I'm quoting here myself for the first time! haha!

This is a hand I've played on 50NL rush. No reads, no HUD.
And stuff like that happens again and again. On the other side, I have to say I never experienced something like that on normal 50NL 6max (except playing a huuuugh fish).

That's why I made good experiences with cbet big (pot it!) with big hands.

My hand is not a monster. But I got 3 streets of value - which is pretty cool. And see what he calls me down with...!!!

welcome to rush poker!

[Nostalgica]

I bet big in general on FTP because of the pot button. People give me action all the time.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by Nostalgica

I bet big in general on FTP because of the pot button. People give me action all the time.

It's very different in HU imo than in 6max... Avarage regular at 6max folds too much imo, while avarage HU regular calls too much...

For the very same reason probably 75% of my overbets are value in HU, but the other way around at 6max.


weaktight | Hand | KJo - €0.50/€1 No Limit Holdem
For example in this spot I'm expecting villain almost always to fold if I bet $55 on the river, but he's hand is so face up that there's a decent chance he'll call me if I jam.

In 6max similar just never works, you should bluffshove 99 here anytime, because in general people don't seem to think "my hand is face up, that's why I should call" at shorthanded games on these stakes.

[podbelski]

fwiw, he did that with KK.

@tmiby:
I'd played it the same way. What he was on? QJ?