NL50 rush: AK 3way on Axx flop sandwiched, deep!

[podbelski]

First, I decided not to 3bet against unknown UTG raise, which I'm not sure was a good decision. Please, comment on this situation, in general. I see that both 3betting and flatting are ok plays, should I prefer one given special conditions like cold-caller and/or deepstack?

On the flop, I wanted to see what the UTG will do (he would likely checked behind without an A, and I do not want that to happen). Plus, if the UTG had weaker but strong A he would likely raised, which is good for me I beleive (plz comment what would you do if he raised my lead). Though if he raised I can't say I'm too happy, cause 33/77 are in his range due to my flatcall pre. Another question is what should happen here that I could fold my hand relatively safely? UTG raises, SB reraises? UTG calls, SB reraises? UTG raises, SB calls?

His call showed he has smth, basically A/strong PP; flushdraw is unlikely cause both A and K are blocked, so very few suited-club combos in his range. Sets are also unlikely cause this deep he would have raised, to get more monies early and to protect against flushdraw. So, the turn basically didn't changed anything, except for draws missed. I do not see the reason to bet here less or check, I thought my hand is almost certainly good...

Can you fold to a raise on that turn? How the size of the raise affects your decision?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Hero (BB) ($100.35)
UTG ($114.20)
MP ($183.80)
CO ($54.30)
Button ($19.25)
SB ($81.70)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, K
UTG bets $1.75, 3 folds, SB calls $1.50, Hero calls $1.25

Flop: ($5.25) 3, A, 7 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3.50, UTG calls $3.50, 1 fold

Turn: ($12.25) A (2 players)
Hero bets $9.50, UTG raises to $108.95 (All-In), Hero calls $85.60 (All-In)

River: ($202.45) Q (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $202.45 | Rake: $3

[given1982]

This hand is a mess. I 3bet pre because I don't want to play this hand OOP with 2 villains. As played, the flop lead makes no sense--you don't even know what to do if you get raised. You called pre to keep the pot small, thinking that it would be difficult to get it in against worse much. But now you think that TT-KK are going to give you multiple streets of value or something?

As played, I probably call the turn raise, because I'm sure that villain thinks you're a fish who would take this line with any A, and he's trying to valuetown you with an A with a good kicker.

[urbansprawler]

You should 3-bet this preflop against two unknown villains close to 100% of the time. You are forced to play a pot oop with no guarantees that you even have relative position. AK is not a hand you want to be c/c'ing with, but if you call preflop, there are few boards you're going to check-raise multi-way.

Turn is a wtf kind of spot but you have such a strong hand I don't see folding as reasonable.

[Nostalgica]

Flatting pre is good because you don't want to fold AKo pre in a rush game, and yet you are 200bbs deep and stacking off after squeezing vs the UTG is spewy. I must disagree with the three of you. The hand is played fine.

[tmiby]

Originally Posted by Nostalgica

Flatting pre is good because you don't want to fold AKo pre in a rush game...

I never consider folding in this spot.

And I understand that we don't wanna get it in with 200BB...

whats about 3bet/fold? is this too weak?

As played, I'm sure this is a standart call.

BTW: the reason that OP posted this hand and that villain overshoved turn....I expect that villain had a FH on turn with 33s or 77s...right? just curious...sorry

[urbansprawler]

Originally Posted by Nostalgica

Flatting pre is good because you don't want to fold AKo pre in a rush game, and yet you are 200bbs deep and stacking off after squeezing vs the UTG is spewy. I must disagree with the three of you. The hand is played fine.

On the contrary, AKo is not a hand to be playing oop 200bb deep multiway in a non-3b pot.

[podbelski]

My understanding is this deep you should be 3bet-calling AK (assuming the UTG 4bets). I definitely will not be 5bet-shoving it. So, because of that, I'd rather play small pot OOP cautiously, than big 4bet one against stronger range. Another thing, the UTG might fold but the SB spazz-shove or the like, and I've seen they doing this with AK, and I do not want that to be the reason for me to play huge pot while I'm not sure what's happening (rush, unknowns).

I wanted to know opinions about the flop situation, just imagine you misclicked pre If you do not like donking line, or see problems with reasoning, please suggest your way to play it.

On the turn, yes I didn't expected anyone would suggest folding, asked just in case.

[Nostalgica]

Playing the hand OOP 200 deep 3way is bad, but playing the hand OOP deep 3way in a 3bet pot is even worse.

You're turning AK into a bluff, you're losing value, and if you 3bet/call, you're spewey. Stacking off AK for 200bbs after squeezing the UTG raiser is incredibly bad, helped only by the fact that it's rush and they can potentially be idiots, but even with that fact, it's horribly high variance and -EV.

Also, calling almost committing raises OOP is bad, so 3bet/calling is way worse than 3bet/shoving. If you 3bet, you should shove or fold, and when you shove, you're hoping they are bluffing. AK is a bluff catcher that deep for the most part since JJ QQ and other pairs will flat your 3bet. This is okay if you have a dynamic, but I believe this is a rush-poker game. The chance of him trying to level you is exceedingly low + those who do try to level would realize that at these stacks they can call 3bets very wide with speculative hands, so a good part of his air range would be calling and not in a bluff/fold spot.

I never consider folding in this spot.

Well that's why you are wrong. You better be considering folding when you get 4bet. This is a UTG raiser and you just squeezed 200bbs deep. Stop thinking "oh this is AK, we must stack off".

Not folding after someone 4bet and the 4bet gets called or 5bet or something would be ridiculous.

[tmiby]

Originally Posted by Nostalgica

Playing the hand OOP 200 deep 3way is bad, but playing the hand OOP deep 3way in a 3bet pot is even worse.

You're turning AK into a bluff, you're losing value, and if you 3bet/call, you're spewey. Stacking off AK for 200bbs after squeezing the UTG raiser is incredibly bad, helped only by the fact that it's rush and they can potentially be idiots, but even with that fact, it's horribly high variance and -EV.

Also, calling almost committing raises OOP is bad, so 3bet/calling is way worse than 3bet/shoving. If you 3bet, you should shove or fold, and when you shove, you're hoping they are bluffing. AK is a bluff catcher that deep for the most part since JJ QQ and other pairs will flat your 3bet. This is okay if you have a dynamic, but I believe this is a rush-poker game. The chance of him trying to level you is exceedingly low + those who do try to level would realize that at these stacks they can call 3bets very wide with speculative hands, so a good part of his air range would be calling and not in a bluff/fold spot.



Well that's why you are wrong. You better be considering folding when you get 4bet. This is a UTG raiser and you just squeezed 200bbs deep. Stop thinking "oh this is AK, we must stack off".

Not folding after someone 4bet and the 4bet gets called or 5bet or something would be ridiculous.

That's actually what I'm saying. 3bet/fold.
(note: I first accidentally wrote 4bet/fold - then edited my own post...probably you saw that...)

Edit: and keep in mind I'm talking about preflop game - nothing else.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by given1982

As played, I probably call the turn raise, because I'm sure that villain thinks you're a fish who would take this line with any A, and he's trying to valuetown you with an A with a good kicker.

On the other hand I don't think he's ever bluffing here... And even if he's playing every hand AQ+ like this we're breakeven by calling... And I think he is more likely to play a full house like this than trips.

I wouldn't really see a turn fold as a mistake. It looks a lot like "ok, now they turned trips and they're never folding to a single raise" ship by a full house.