PLO100: We have to call... right?

[chinz]

4way allin on the flop (clickety-click)

A pretty sick flop action... but is there any way to fold 2nd nut boat on the flop with just 2 (well, there surprisingly was 3 this time) outs to improve? I think most of the time we are splitting this (if all redraws miss) but very often we are drawing to 2 (Q) outs here. I think I'd call here too... but this is a really sick pot even with just 100bb imo.

On the other hand, seeing what kind of awful hands people are getting it in here... folding would be kind of mehhh.

At least this shows that PLO games (at least on FTP) are not dead.

[Daverer]

I don't really have anything constructive to say because I wouldn't have a clue where I was at in this spot! But I thought I'd respond cos I want to get into omaha and waking this forum up is a good start! As I was reading the hand I was thinking 'I bet someone's got pocket 7s'.. but like you say there's obv two bad players here so who's to say there's not three, and hero does have the redraw, and with all that money out there...

Whey you say "PLO games..are not dead" do you mean people are already thinking that PLO has reached that point where players are too good to make it hugely profitable, or that people aren't playing it so much? Only just getting into a new game, I want it to be one that's on the up!

[Spinage]

See, this is where I am sooo bad at PLO. I would snap call this, cry, and say "cooler". LOL, but obviously I am wrong from your responses GJ I only play PLO for fun

EDIT: I think it is a cooler actually, considering out that Hero owned the other two villains, and the winner could have just as easily had some stupid flusdraw, straight draw, overpair combo.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by Spinage

See, this is where I am sooo bad at PLO. I would snap call this, cry, and say "cooler". LOL, but obviously I am wrong from your responses GJ I only play PLO for fun

EDIT: I think it is a cooler actually, considering out that Hero owned the other two villains, and the winner could have just as easily had some stupid flusdraw, straight draw, overpair combo.

While I wouldn't call it a cooler, since we should expect to be at least against another 5 + overcards or more likely another 57... But I wasn't too serious about my question on the topic, just wanted to post this sick hand.

So I answer to my own question: yes, we have to call, especially with so bloated pot preflop. Generally 77xx hands are crap, so we shouldn't expect anyone to have sevens full here... But it's not like "ship iiiiit!!!!!" call, we are calling knowing that we are having like 40%* equity here by avarage, which of course makes calling very +EV

As you can see, even the sevens full only had 60.40% equity here with the nuts... Quad draw, straigh flush draws, overpairs... they do add up!

* = We might be splitting this one, we might be facing hands like 589T, sometimes there's 77xx, straight flush draw is possible, there might be overpairs in some hands...

[urbansprawler]

Fold pre????????

Limp/call?

Flop is an easy bet/shove, std variance imo.

Srsly preflop is horrible; your hand is very uncoordinated and 57 can only make 2 nut straights while your QQ will have to fend off a myriad of draws if it flops a set and will often flip, while any FD you hit will very often be dominated and you'll get it in thinking you have a combo draws while you may not even have your pair as giving you the best hand.

Omg...I wish I had the roll for that 100PLO Game. Looks so juicy from all those limpers. WTF!?!?!?!?

[chinz]

(sorry for bumping, I just didn't see this reply earlier).
This is not my HH, but my friend who played this is beating PLO100-PLO200 with a decent winrate, so I wouldn't say he can't play omaha...

Originally Posted by urbansprawler

Fold pre????????

Wow, you really are nitty. (I'm not saying that it's awful, but I wouldn't fold QQds pre)

Limp/call?

We are mainly looking to flop a topset, so we want to have multiway pot and we can't call 3bet (people are 3betting A LOT in smallstakes omaha, it's not like micros). Limping is OK, maybe even the best way to play this.

Any decent player is 3betting hands like A789ss or KQT8ss from the BTN/CO, and we really can't do anything other than fold in that case.

We are really just hoping to make a nut straight, "nut-straightdraw" + overpair, flush (we're not really happy with that) or top set. Why would we want to make pot bigger pre? We'd just have to fold to 3bet and you're not really isolating at all in omaha by raising pre.

Openlimping is bad in most cases, especially EP, but limping behind is fine IMO.

Flop is an easy bet/shove, std variance imo.

Why not checkraise? People might just call with 5xxx and 3 overs, but if we checkraise they have to get it in on the flop. If we bet and turn comes A and it's still 3way, what do we do?

Omg...I wish I had the roll for that 100PLO Game. Looks so juicy from all those limpers. WTF!?!?!?!?

Once again, limping is not bad in omaha. I don't like limping in first but limping behind is often the optimal way to play preflop, especially if you have a hand that you want a multiway pot.

You can go play PLO1k (or watch Jeans' videos from coinflip.com) to see that people are (even open)limping a lot in those games too. If you're so much better than my friend at PLO you should be able to crush micros well over 10ptbb/100 and be rolled for PLO100 in a week or so.

----

I agree that Omaha games are soft, probably better than NLHE et same stakes. Many players played that hand terribly, but Hero from the HH isn't one of them IMO. I think all 3 options are OK preflop, it's not like you can really make a big mistake with doublesuited premium pair.

[urbansprawler]

See, overlimping is fine; I limp tons im omaha. The problem with limping here is that you expose your hand to the whole table with 4 players left to act. If you were in MP/CO, just calling would be fine. Playing this hand OOP isn't too great IMO unless the table is very loose/passive and you won't be facing many 3bets and you'll be able to ship your top sets. I don't like playing the flush draw OOP however with the multiway pot you are trying to induce. You want multiway pots with a hand like A2ssXX that have nut potential. This hand has almost no nut potential. You're going to see a 3-way flop at least, and probably 4-way or more because the sb will complete for such a good price with a marginal hand.

That said, if the players behind you are tight and will fold often, it's a good idea to flat here because you might often get one other caller behind you and you'll have position on 3 players postflop.

Setmining in omaha is also usually -EV with less than like ~200bbs FME.

We can argue about limping behind here and IMO it's table-dependent, but I can't say it's terrible. The limp/call is terrible. Once the pot is raised, you must lay this down.

I don't like checking because this is a flop that, once the first few players check, it will get checked through a lot; now that's not bad because this is a drawy semi-coordinated board so you often cause a lot of flushes/straights to hit and then you can win a nice pot. The problem with the check is that someone with a 5 has a plethora of outs. There are probably 2 or 3 pocket pairs out there as well so you are now giving out maybe as many as 14 outs! You have to be almost certain here that your opponents are total donks who will ship it with flushes and straights later on in the hand to give out that free card and even then I think it's close.

Even when you bet, though, you are in an ugly spot. You will get your money in against an opponent who either has you totally crushed or has 9 outs to a better full house. You don't even have redraw equity, except 2 outs for the QQ. But you need to get it in because your hand is just strong enough.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by urbansprawler

We can argue about limping behind here and IMO it's table-dependent, but I can't say it's terrible. The limp/call is terrible. Once the pot is raised, you must lay this down.

Nope. We got just what we wanted with limping behind - a multiway pot (so it is profitable for us to setmine). Even if we only had a 2 card hand here, QQ, we'd still get great odds to setmine here when no-one is behind us preflop (no fear of getting 3bet) and the pot becomes so big, that people are stacking off very light postflop.

If flop comes for example Q67r, anyone with overpair, top two, pair+openender or similar should (and will) be stacking off.
-> We're getting our money in with very good equity (by avarage) when we hit our set. If the pot would be eg. limped and 3way, we would almost never get our stacks in much better than flipping (unless they happen to flop a midset)

When we are the last to call preflop and pot is going to be 5-way, we should be calling with any hand that has a premium pair in it, no matter how bad the hand is otherwise.

IMO this is a great example of those very few spots when you can call preflop even when 90% of your hand value comes from setmining.

[urbansprawler]

Originally Posted by chinz

Nope. We got just what we wanted with limping behind - a multiway pot (so it is profitable for us to setmine)

What are you talking about...this is exactly what you don't want with a pair and a nutted draw.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by urbansprawler

What are you talking about...this is exactly what you don't want with a pair and a nutted draw.

Actually, there's 2 spots where this hand works great:

1) 3bet HU pot in position
2) limped/singleraised multiway (at least 4 people) pot.

In first case, we have overpair value and we can profitably play our FDs aggressively. In the second one we are mainly looking to flop a top set, getting great implied odds.

When we see the flop 5-way flopping a set of queens has huge implied odds. Pot has so much dead money, that people will be stacking off with draws that have 8 outs to the nuts and also hands as weak as overpairs (in many flops).

If we don't flop gin (set of queens, 346, 46Jr, 557, 775, 777, 555 and such) we are getting away cheap.