PLO vs super aggression

[Daverer]

Hi everyone. I've been having some success at cheeseburger stake PLO playing basically a 'small ball' style, seeing a lot of flops and extracting value when I hit. However, yesterday I got thoroughly outplayed. I sat down at two tables where three of the same guys were at each and I guess they knew each other or had been playing together for some time because the aggression factor was huge compared to my normal tables. There was no seeing a flop for less than one raise (if you raised, it'd be two!), and postflop if you checked any street you'd be facing a pot, if you bet you'd be facing a raise or a float-(near)shove - they had pitched the game at a 'play for your stack or not at all' level. A couple of times I saw the money go all in preflop (and the aggressor had a really weak hand). By betting so vigorously they can make it very difficult to find the pot odds to draw.

Questions:
Is their approach profitable? Exploiting the fear of the weaker players (myself included) seemed to be paying off for them, but too often when I run multistreet bluffs I find myself getting called down by 2 pair or better - I'm not sure it would be profitable long-term.

How do you counter their strategy? In holdem I'd recognise their LAGtardedness and assign them a wider range, be willing to mix it any time I'm ahead of their range. In PLO I find that harder to assess. In the end, I decided to try to take away their strategy's power by removing the fold equity on the later streets - tightened up, saw the flop for one bet when possible and any time I had enough outs to give me roughly 50% equity against a pair just got it all in there and then. e.g.:

[I get AQK7 and limp, willing to call the inevitable raise but not wanting to pay two bets; two of the aggressive guys see the flop with me. Flop comes TJ4 giving me 13 outs to the nuts, player 1 bets pot, player 2 raises pot, I shove, player 1 folds, player 2 calls with top and bottom pair; Eq: 50%]

Unfortunately I didn't luck out often enough. But what would you have done? If the higher stakes games play more aggressive, what do you do to keep up?

Thanks,

Dave.

[Silverthunder]

I don't know a ton about PLO. However, the player that you are describing can be tough to play against. By cheeseburger stakes, do you mean dollar stakes?

I just thought of this as an idea, though, for you..
Stand up from the tables and re-sit with a short stack- I don't know exactly, do some calculations on your own to figure out how much you need to buy in so that this will work Next, sit and wait for a hand. Fold your blinds like crazy and just keep topping off your short stack. Once you get your hand, 3 bet and 4 bet to get it heads up vs. someone that is in position against you. You want to have ~ a pot sized bet in your stack on the flop.
If you think there is any kind of a chance that the guy did not hit the flop in a huge huge way, just shove, don't even worry what your cards are. In PLO, even with like the other player having the nuts, I am sure that you are going to have 25% equity minimum. That is the thing about PLO, people have so many outs that aggression, I would think dominates.

Here is the calculation in terms of the pot
1x pot + 1x pot + 1x pot if he calls you = 3x pot
You are putting in 33% to the pot + you are getting fold equity, and worse case, you see the turn and river with probably more than 25% equity. Keep in mind that you will probably be ahead in equity on the flop but I am just saying worse case, like if the flop hits him completely and barely hits you.

After that, stand up, sit down and rebuy for short stack. Repeat a few times. Then go back to playing your normal game.

[Daverer]

Thanks Silver. It actually crossed my mind that I could switch off autorebuy and let my stack dwindle a little (well, only if it has to of course!), then shortstack em and 'go south' any time I do well. Might at least make em target someone else!
I suppose they're making it effectively a shortstack game with bigger blinds by the way they're playing. I don't think my 'wait for a hand worth 50% or better and shove' approach is all that good because they're getting 50% equity when I'm happy and my preflop money when I'm not. I'm trying to think why I don't play that way - it's because I figure the other people at the table are going to wise up, tighten up, beat the crap out of me with pocket aces, two pair plus, pair plus multiway draws etc. So I guess that's what I should do. An alternative strategy of course is to just stand up and find a better table!
This is also making me aware of how suboptimally I'm playing PLO so far. I'm only just getting to grips with the game (and have had a horrendous couple of days.. thankfully Full Tilt's Take2 promo is paying for me to learn PLO this month!) but so far I'm hardly raising preflop, and I'm not stealing very much at all.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by Daverer

I get AQK7 and limp, willing to call the inevitable raise but not wanting to pay two bets; two of the aggressive guys see the flop with me. Flop comes TJ4 giving me 13 outs to the nuts, player 1 bets pot, player 2 raises pot, I shove, player 1 folds, player 2 calls with top and bottom pair; Eq: 50%]

When someone is 3betting light all the time and willing to gamble, you should probably 4bet AKQ7 (at least if suited to A or K) preflop. Or just get it in on the flop with any 8+ out draw (doesn't really matter if it's to the nuts, if it's HU flop again maniac) or even top pair on some rainbow boards (where straights aren't possible). Even if you get called by something like bottom two and gutshot on K85 style board, you do have tons of outs.

Always c/rai on the flop, if you want to continue against a guy like this... Unless board is something like K83r and you flop a set, then it's good to slowplay for one street and shove the turn.

For some reason people tend to call down with hands like top two in HU pots (and then wonder how they someone "sucked out once again") instead of just c/r on the flop. I really don't understand it, unless the board is very dry and villain is a complete maniac.

[Silverthunder]

Chinz, the only thing is that it is pot limit Omaha so don't know if you can always check shove (depends on preflop).

I was thinking more about PLO & it would be nice to get all in 3 way & then if the other 2 are deeper stacked aggros, let them push each other out of the pot on later streets.

It would make more sense if people played PL holeem and no limit omaha so that the 2 games were more on the same aggression level.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by Silverthunder

Chinz, the only thing is that it is pot limit Omaha so don't know if you can always check shove (depends on preflop).

Yes you can unless you're very deep (when these advices don't apply of course). I was talking about 3bet pots.

Even if you "only" get 85% of stacks in by checkraising, that is an effective allin, because no matter what the turn brings, no-one is folding when they have 5% of the pot behind.

[Daverer]

Thanks guys. Getting it all in with these guys was not going to be difficult, so I guess I just needed to be more patient, wait for my spots. I am finding it difficult to estimate how far ahead I am, but that's due to the complexity of the game and it'll come with practice. Last night, I played a little more of a dynamic game and it was working well for me although I lost one buyin to a 'all in on the turn with nut flush, set makes FH when river pairs the board (~25%?)', and made a silly raise on the river with the underfull when I could have saved myself a couple of bets (he slowplayed the nuts until the river, where I hit.. very annoying!)... ended up a couple of buyins down, but feeling fairly positive that my game has progressed. I find it fascinating how much a pair on the board changes the value of your hand (how easy it is for someone to have KJ or JJ on a KKJxx board) or how drastically a two-flush being out on the flop can devalue your straight draw, especially against multiple opponents. It's a great game, but I sense it's going to cost me a few more buyins before I really get the hang of it.

[Silverthunder]

Good luck, Daverer. Try to find some internet resources on PLO if you do not already have some. I am sure there is a lot to learn as it is even tougher than NLHE.

[Padawan]

Daverer,

you really need to tighten up against these players and get the money in.. pre flop if they want to 3bet you all the time.. I play PLO almost exclusively and have been very successful with it. The problem a lot of people have is they see a hand like AKQ7 and think YAY I have a good hand... What position are you in? UTG well if you want to see the flop cheap... just limp it.. Position is so key in PLO... also I just let them hang themselves when they play this way...

See the flop.. call with your draw 1 street and let it go... if you hit check again... they will bet.. Ill even check a 3rd time if say a FD missed.. hoping they will put me on that.. and then Pot the crap out of them... Get the crap out of your range and play IP against these opponents... If they have position on you GET UP... and get position on them.

[Daverer]

Hey thanks Padawan. I'm in a bit of a studying phase now after my PLO marathon. I still have a lot to learn, but I've picked up some videos from *ahem* another training site, and I'm running through those right now, realizing that I've been making some pretty big mistakes mostly around not being ready to shove it all in the middle when I'm ahead and instead letting people draw out on me (then paying them off when they hit!)... which of course allows them to play me better than I'm playing them. Hopefully I'll catch you on AIM some time, we should talk some PLO!