Why Bankroll Management Sucks

[adam258]

Bankroll Management

** This thread is for all the people who think:
1. suffering a bad beat is my fault and not the donks (as Trikkur says in 1 of the many vids),
2. grinding for 3 hours at 10nl to make 1 Buy-in is good (see "ShoveorFold"'s posts re: him building a bankroll),
3. playing micros everyday for 6-8months (or in my case, the rest of my life) to slowly work their way up the limits
**

Now, that being out of the way from the get go, we can start a discussion that I guarantee no one (well maybe extremely few of you) will agree with. That's this concept about putting $50-$100 online and playing micros to build up a roll. Some say use a 20-15 rule. Trikkur suggested a 20-17 rule in vids. Now, this varies from person to person, but all would have me playing 5nl or 10nl for 3hrs to make $10 or so. And then over time, let this small wins add up and EVENTUALLY, you are supposed to be able to move up.

Now I dunno about you, but I refuse to grind for hours to make only $10. Screw that!!!!! Same goes for SNGs. I'm not gonna play $5 SNGs, knowing a good roi is 30%, and grind at them forever. I don't see how you nits do it! What good is there in playing that low a level only to have your hard earned winnings taken away by one lucky donk!?!? Screw that! And forget this notion about "Anyone who gets bad beat it's their fault (or something very similar)" quoted from Trikkur. If you get bad beat its not your fault unless you slow played your hand. If you raise pre-flop, bet flop, bet turn, and bet river, .... how the hell is it your fault to be bad beat by a god damn calling station!?!? Someone please explain that BS to me!

Well, most who haven't quit reading by this point are at least mad/upset/laughing/calling me an idiot/etc. But I'm not going to grind stakes where the money doesn't matter. I'll play any 2 cards for $5 because I've sat at tables where blinds were higher than that and held my own. But playing with 5nl and 10nl idiot calling stations who call you down with any piece of the flop whether bottom pair, flush draw, or straight draw (one of which they have 90% of the time) is pointless. Wtf do I learn from playing in that game? That some people are really that stupid? Well, I already knew that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are millions of them! And tons of them are in management or leadership positions (which is so maddening).

All of this must have a point, some of you may be saying. Well here it is. Screw micros. Screw 6-8months before being at a limit where one could make a living playing poker. Why can't some deposit $X and start at 25nl or 50nl or 100nl even? There HAS to be a better way than grinding the micros. Does anyone know what it is? I refuse to grind micros any longer.

- Life long loser (and probably going to be the first person to be banned at PokerTrikz)

[Qgel]

Why would you think this post could result in a ban? That makes absolutely no sense so you must be bluffing, I call.

Seriously though, you don't HAVE to start at 5 NL to grind out a roll. If you know the basic concepts, understand why Trikkur is double barreling or check raising in his vids, there is absolutely no need to stay at such low limits to grind because you already have a huge edge on 99% of the donks at 5NL or 10NL. In fact, many higher stakes coaches suggest that 20NL or 25NL is a good place to start learning the basics. In the end it all comes down to your bankroll whether you like it or not.

The 20/15 or 20/17 rules are simply there to guarantee you don't ever go bust. Personally, I think that is way too "nitty" and you could easily move up with lower requirements, but you can't go too crazy either and have your entire bankroll on the 4 tables when you move up. IMO to lose like 10 buyins at a micro stakes you have to be ridiculously unlucky, tilty or just playing a very high variance style which usually just doesn't work at micros. In my whole poker lifetime I've never gone on a bigger downswing than 12~ buyins, and that was back when I was a donk who couldn't fold TP. That, combined with some coolers/suckouts can result in a 2digit downswing. Otherwise you simply have to be doing something very wrong if you can't beat 20NL and below.

I myself actually started playing with a 25$ bankroll on stars, no more and no less. And grinding the 2NL, 5NL and 10 NL games there without rakeback nor bonuses (didn't even know what the hell they were, lol) I somehow grinded out a roll big enough for 20NL and then found pokertrikz, signed up for rakeback and moved to cake. there I reached 50NL and then 100NL and now have a big enough roll for 400NL but have neither time, nor dedication to move up at the moment. OK so now you're wondering why the hell am I telling you all this, right? Well guess what, I moved up from 2NL to 100NL in under 6 months while grinding even more than the 20/15 rule. I moved up when I had like 30 buyins for the next limit if not more, so It was one hell of a grind. But you know what? I didn't feel like I was grinding, I simply loved the game itself, loved the thrill of winning a big pot and loved the fact that I'm making money while having fun. Whenever I had a losing session, I would watch videos, read strategies and stuff because I was convinced that I'm losing because I don't play good enough. I still don't feel that way but having built up a bankroll from scratch is a big boost to overall confidence.

I believe that you have to love to play the game in order to learn the game. If you see poker as a boring daily job and you're only playing because you need to - you probably won't get anywhere.

Oh and I didn't get what you meant by saying Bad Beats are someone's fault? The variance is to blame, not you and not the donk who 2 outerred you on the river.

[adam258]

I'm not bluffing about going to be the first to be banned PROBABLY. I guess you are too new to see where I've been threatened in the past with it. And no I don't think it will occur because of this post. However, it is kind of inevitable.

Re: the "Bad Beats are someone's fault" quote, that comes directly from Trikkur's mouth in one of the videos. (unless he has removed it - but I have all of them on a separate 500GB portable hard drive where I would be able to upload it to you). He clearly says that and I have never once agreed with it. The statement is totally idiotic, has no basis, and is just plain laughable.

[Trikkur]

Let's clear up a few issues here.

1 - You have been threatened with banning not for speaking out against concepts that I teach, but because you have insulted members with derogatory terms multiple times. I'm not going to sit here and let anyone regardless of who they are call other people names.

2 - "Bad beats are someones fault" - I'm not sure of the exact quote you are referencing, but more often than not bad beats do come from "hero" playing his hand in a bad way. Slow playing is the number one reason that comes to mind. If you try to slow play and villain takes a free card and "sucks out" well you really can't complain, you should of probably bet your strong hands like I've said many many times before.

3 - Bankroll Management - There is a lot to respond to here so let's see if I can break it up into smaller sections.

Grinding for 3 hours to make $10. - This is a serious issue if this is what you think. You still attach a dollar amount to poker, which is something that you need to get past. The money that is in your bankroll is no longer dollars it is Big Blinds, etc. You don't grind 3 hours to make $10, you grind 3 hours to make 100 Big Blinds. Same thing when you play 1000NL. You grind 3 hours to make 100 Big Blinds. If you don't understand this, you need to lose your attachment to the money that goes into playing poker. It will cause serious tilt both in anger and in passivity.

Skipping Micro Stakes - Not only do I recommend the 20/15 or 20/17 rule for moving up because it lowers your risk of ruin significantly (pretty much to 0% if you move down like you should) but it also shows that you are capable of beating the smaller stakes first. If you can't beat 10NL, what would ever make you be able to beat 25NL, 50NL, or 100NL. Bankroll Management does a lot of things besides just making it so you don't lose all of your money.

Honestly Adam, I think you need to really get an understanding of the theoretical aspects of poker and the correct mindset before worrying about strategical issue. Trust me when I say that this is probably the number 1 reason players can't beat the micros. they just think about it all the wrong way. It doesn't take a genius to beat 10NL, I could teach any random person to do it if they had the proper mindset.

[ShoveOrFold]

I don't understand why you would rather play for 3 hours and lose money and grind micros and win a small amount of money. And making money isn't even the most important thing when it comes to poker. Tons of people play as a hobby and actually WANT to build a bankroll out of nothing.

Why do you blame "the donks" for your bad beats? This is a card game and there will always be variance. If you can't grasp that fact then you will constantly get tilted and donk away your money. And why do you say playing against calling stations are a bad thing? They are willing to give away their money, and you don't like that? Just play a tight game, don't bluff, and extract value from your bigger hands. Yeah sometimes they will suck out on you when you are going to value town, but more often than not (after a large sample), you will be +ev. Poker isn't about making money, nor is it about losing money. All you can do is put yourself in the best position to make money, and make the right plays. Don't be so results oriented.

And fwiw, I don't grind 3 hours to make 10$. In the past 4 days i've played 6 hours (because of midterms) and I have won 110 dollars. (10$/3hr) =/= (110$/6hr). Yeah this is still a small amount of $ if you think about it, but i don't see it as exactly only 110 dollars. It is money that i'm going to use to make more money, so in essense, it is worth a lot more.

I was just wondering, how old are you?

I think you need to lose your egocentric attitude. You are not better than those "5 nl and 10nl" fish if you can't beat them. And i don;t know how anyone can be a losing microstakes player after watching all the pokertrikz videos. The only explanation to this is because you are not learning from these videos. You need to watch them with an open mind and a closed wallet.

If you hate poker that much, and have lost thousands of dollars from online poker, why not just quit? There are better things in life you could be doing with that money and time.

[Padawan]

Adam,
Like you I once had the mindset, that I just cant play against these donks anymore, they are calling my 3 bets with garbage and sucking out on me when I have AA and they hit with 56... well bottom line was I was only playing my hand... NEVER did I think about their range and watching their betting patterns... When I started doing this, and not caring about being bluffed, I actually started being able to lay down AA or KK.

I really want you to pay attention to this next part... I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU
when it comes to grinding for an hour for freaking 1/2 a buy in at 20NL.. ARGH it pissed me off especially because I make REALLY good money at my job and that $10 is really crap to me. BUT!!! I stopped thinking about the money... my whole bankroll right now is $1300 for poker and I got 20 times that in the bank... its not about the money bro its about the challenge.. I want to be better. I love a challenge... and I want to work my way up not just buy in at the 1k NL which I would totally lose at. Its easy to go to a live game play every few weeks and win at the higher limits... Easy to get lucky... its when you play 100k hands and prove you win not because of luck but because you are better than your opponents. THIS IS WHAT I STRIVE FOR..... Adam I think you can do this... I really believe that I had the same mindset as you but when I changed my mindset, like Trikkur is talking about, from the $ amount to just beating the limit. Man is it an accomplishment.
Honestly I wouldnt care about the money if I lost it... I would care because I lost... in fact when I lose I go into a semi depression its really unhealthy. But its not over the money its because I made bad decisions and I have to recognize what my opponents will call with.
some people will call 3 bets with pocket 2's.. DONK move but hey if you know this about them and they usually fold to your c bets and all a sudden they go crazy and you have AA... its possible they have a set when the board is come J510... most important thing is playing the player not your cards...

Adam I really think you can improve your game and I know this site and all of us can help you... Oh I never play HU cuz Im not good enough yet at reading opponents... I always read about your posts of playing HU.. STOP... Start at 6 max or full ring and start slow... Think about it as a challenge. forget the $ amount.

Good luck bro.

[nawhead]

Just because something is boring and/or hard and/or "sucks" doesn't mean it's not the best way to do something. But bankroll management by itself won't guarantee you success.

This is just my personal take on it, so you can assume it's utter bull if you want:

The bankroll management concept and the specific numbers attached to it are just guidelines that will keep an average player playing (insert specific poker game here) for the longest time without busting their gambling bankroll due to normal variance.

There's an inherent variance to the game, even if you always get your stack in as a 5 to 1 favorite. Even though your odds seem good, you losing as a 80-20% favorite 5 times in a row, if you play enough hands, is very likely. And there's also a chance (a very small one) that you could lose in that situation 10, 15, 20 times in a row. 10+ is probably very unlikely, but still possible. I'm sure people have calculated some probability numbers for this, but I just accept from experience that losing that many buyins due to longshot suckouts is very unrealistic. Not unreal in the 2 outer on the river (22 to 1 against) type of "that's unreal bro," but something like a billion to 1 against unreal.

But we don't always get it in as a 5 to 1 favorite. We also call on a draw (with odds hopefully), coinflipping, as a small favorite, or just stackoff as a big dog. So on average, we get our money in as a much less favorite, and thus variance goes up. So now instead of being unlikely to be sucked out 10,15, 20 times in row (if somehow magically we always were a 5 to 1 fav), now depending on just how bad we play, it might become slightly unlikely to very likely to simply expected that we lose 20 times in a row (if all we did was get it in as a dog or coinflip).

So bankroll management by itself won't make us a better or worse player, it's simply a guideline to withstand normal variance. If you play a riskier game (like playing any 2 cards for $5 because you've sat in games where the blinds were bigger), you need a bigger bankroll. If you play a much tighter and/or easier game you need less bank. But 15-20 buys is still the bare minimum bankroll for the easiest games (online microstakes or a donkey home game).

It's a fairly straightforward concept. There's no point in saying it sucks. It's like whining about gravity.

However, if you don't care about busting your poker roll due to normal variance, then play 100NL with 5 buys. Play 200NL with 2 buys. Nobody's saying you can't. But there's a high likelihood that you will go broke, even if you nutpeddle. Even Phil Ivey on his A-game is very likely to go broke at any level given just 2 buys. It sucks, yeah. And we fall down when we trip. Life's a bitch.

If you want to play for the long haul, you need to use bankroll management. Still, if you consider your entire bank account every month your gambling bankroll, then rock on. As long as you have a day job, you'll never go broke.

[Colossos159]

Hi adam (i'm at work ),

I promised to respond to this post as we are completely different in bankroll building and overall nittynes as we discussed yesterday. Adam has seen me play several times now and I've seen him play and we are completely different in mindset of money and playing style. I'm the typical low stake grinder for over a year now and have no idea how big my bankroll is (as I cashout sometimes) but the amount of money I made must be around 1300$. I know and Adam knows that I'm a winning player (at micro stakes) with a bankroll supporting 50NL , yet I continue to play 10NL/25NL and the 5$ sitngo (and even lower!). Even my sharkscope graph on full tilt and ongame network sais that my average buy in is: 4$. And I can completely understand Adam in the fact that this would suck for him as he is the aggressive "who cares about 5$" -player. (I have to mention here that he is in no way a bad player! He'd probalby own me HU and even in 6max at 50NL because I play like a total nit.) But I have fun playing the game and winning a 5$ sitngo still makes me smile and say "Thank You, donkeys" to my screen and thats were the difference is: If Adam plays for an hour , he must make 40$ or the hour was a waste of time which he could have spend better. If I play for an hour and win 5$ , i'm like : i made 5$, i had fun, i didnt spend money on beer and didnt watch porn .
I know you lost quite some money playing online and you seem to me like someone who wants to win it all back with the least amount of effort and as fast as possible. I dont know which pro said it but the question was: What is the most important skill as a poker player? And he answered "Patience". I believe he's right. I think you realise that this is not one of your virtues (spelling?)
Instead of playing 50NL with a 200$ bankroll, why dont you start playing 20NL 6 max with the 200$ bankroll, double your money (you can definetetly do this in a month), and use the 200$ winnings to play 50NL 6 max. If you lose it , ok, back to 20NL with your remaining 200$ and repeat it. Maybe you'll hit your lucky streak at these shots at 50NL and you're on your way. This is not good bankroll management but thats kinda of your style anyway. I know , i know: you have to play 20NL for at least a month and no one can guarentee that you will win 200$ but if you cant do that , how will you ever win at higher stakes?

You are a good player (a little bit too aggressive) but I believe you skipped some essential part: Prove to yourself you can beat the micro stakes and than deposit a larger amount of money to play the bigger stakes if you dont want to spend the time in building a complete bankroll.

[Colossos159]

Originally Posted by adam258

Why can't some deposit $X and start at 25nl or 50nl or 100nl even?

Because if that someone wants to win at these levels, he should first prove he's beating the lower levels and no one knows that for sure before he's actually done it.

[mxrider]

Originally Posted by adam258

All of this must have a point, some of you may be saying. Well here it is. Screw micros. Screw 6-8months before being at a limit where one could make a living playing poker. Why can't some deposit $X and start at 25nl or 50nl or 100nl even? There HAS to be a better way than grinding the micros. Does anyone know what it is? I refuse to grind micros any longer.

Nobody says you have to have a bankroll. Period. You play what you feel is right for you. If that means making a $200 deposit weekly, then so be it. If you want to deposit $10k and play 400nl, then go for it. Nobody says you have to grind your way up. I personally choose to grind it out because:

1. I don't want to invest my own personal funds into poker. I would rather grind it out of other people and let them fund me.

2. It's not about making a living or income to me. It's about overcoming obstacles and learning the game.

You can have a large instant bankroll for whatever you feel comfortable putting in. Now, with that being said, don't expect to never go broke doing it this way. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Poker (and practically everything in life) doesn't work that way. Period. This is just something you have to accept whether you like it or not. If you can't accept that, I would advise you to stop playing.


mx