Villain folds to my 2x 4 bet

[Silverthunder]

Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($35.55)
Hero (Button) ($85.48)
SB ($329.90)
BB ($94.10)
UTG ($114.10)
MP ($40.75)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10:spade:, 8:spade:
3 folds, Hero bets $3.50, SB raises to $12.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $24.77, 1 fold

Total pot: $26

There was a bit of a dynamic between this villain and I. He was 3 bet messing with me. There was a hand that I posted in the small stakes forum recenly where the villain 3 bet me with QJo & he 3 bet me from the blinds I think twice earlier in the session (I think it was actually his SB vs my button). One time I called with AJ and folded to his flop cbet on like a T high flop. So yea, villain was messing with me & he had position on me at both of the tables. I think this was the 1st time that I had 4 bet him, out of at least 4 times that he 4 bet me (over a pretty descent number of hands) so I guess that is what game me some respect.

Edit: yes, brag. I guess my image is so good that he will fold to a 2x 4 bet.

[given1982]

Is this supposed to be a brag? If you play 100NL, I would think that 4bet bluffing comes up every session.

[urbansprawler]

Lmao this thread me lol really hard.

[Silverthunder]

I don't really see 4 bet bluffing come up what much- I guess it rarely gets to showdown, though, so tough to tell. Part of the reason that I say that it is not very common is because, from what I have seen, villains 4 bet/ call.

US, so you are lol'ing at me? I say lol @ villain for insta-putting me on AA/KK and folding.

[podbelski]

Why does it play big role to include 4bet-bluffing into your arsenal at these stakes? I'm not doing this yet, maybe some advice will help my understanding.

As I see you do it:
1. in hope he is 3betting lite (light?) and will fold
2. he will make a note you 4bet and then folded to a shove/folded on the flop what means your 4bet range includes non-pairs or pure junk
3. you assume the money spent on unsuccessful 4bets will be covered with winnings surplus

I feel I just cannot put this all together and at the same time be sure I'm not spewing money

[given1982]

Originally Posted by podbelski

Why does it play big role to include 4bet-bluffing into your arsenal at these stakes? I'm not doing this yet, maybe some advice will help my understanding.

As I see you do it:
1. in hope he is 3betting lite (light?) and will fold
2. he will make a note you 4bet and then folded to a shove/folded on the flop what means your 4bet range includes non-pairs or pure junk
3. you assume the money spent on unsuccessful 4bets will be covered with winnings surplus

I feel I just cannot put this all together and at the same time be sure I'm not spewing money

Lots of reasons. The regs will be 3betting you a lot, which is annoying, and if you 4bet them a decent amount, they will slow down on the 3betting. Also, it increases your frequency, so that some people might think it's profitable to 5bet shove weaker hands even though you're never really calling with worse. They may also be 3betting such a wide range but continuing with such a narrow range that it's profitable in a vacuum.

[given1982]

Originally Posted by Silverthunder

US, so you are lol'ing at me? I say lol @ villain for insta-putting me on AA/KK and folding.

Why lol @ villain? Every indication, especially from what's in this thread, is that you are a nit, so it seems pretty reasonable to put you on KK+ when you finally 4bet.

[chinz]

Yeah, I don't really understand what he's supposed to do most of the time when you 4bet, if not fold?

And spots for 4bet bluffing certainly come frequently at NL100... It's hard to guess but maybe like once every few hundred hands. You certainly don't want to overdo it, but when people have 10% 3bet overall, you have to be willing to 4bet light somewhat frequently if you want to have >40% steal from LP.

And whenever some people have something like >8% 3betting stat, I would 4bet almost always with any Ax over their squeezes (if someone has 8% 3bet, his squeeze % should be much higher) by default... It's fun!

so that some people might think it's profitable to 5bet shove weaker hands even though you're never really calling with worse.

Even if our calling range doesn't change, it does become profitable for him to shove wider range if he knows we're 3bet bluffing a lot. Pocket pairs and hands like AQs still have decent equity against our calling range and he has a lot of folding equity...

This is quoting whitelime: "if you're frequently 3betting small PPs against good LAGs LP raises from the blinds, you should almost always shove over their 4bet". Of course this doesn't apply to NL100 as well, but I'd never 3bet-fold AQs+ or TT+ from the blinds against LP raise anyway. I probably have around 15% 3bet in those spots, so I assume that any decent regular (not the nits!) will adjust to that.

That's also great for your image, when you're playing like 30/25/5 with 10% 3bet you'll see even the nits do crazy calldowns and such against you... So even when some preflop moves (or postflop semibluffs) are around breakeven, they are great for building an aggressive image.

[podbelski]

So I see this stuff should be done against aggressive thinking regulars.
You spew money doing this to nits, and I think the passive fish with low PFR% is also unlikely to be a good choice.

[Silverthunder]

Thanks for all the feedback you guys. I like that quote that you put in there, Chinz.

It's true that I am a nit. However, (1) I am not a nit in stealing the BB from the SB. (2) I am not a nit in 3 betting regs light. (3) I am not a nit in seeing flops with fish/ isoing. If none of these are present, I am probably something like 18% pfr (I am using my opening range from the cutoff for that calculation). Still, there is no way that he can just instaput me on KK+.

I guess the thing that I am confused about is at what point, bet sizing-wise, should he just insta call with ATC (or let's say a suited A/ suited connector) even if he does put me on KK+/ AK.

Originally Posted by podbelski

So I see this stuff should be done against aggressive thinking regulars.
You spew money doing this to nits, and I think the passive fish with low PFR% is also unlikely to be a good choice.

yes, probably comes into play at 100NL+. But yeah, if someone is just 3 betting you all over the place, it's a go, as long as they are not a complete maniac.