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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2011, 01:45 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 737

The villain in hand is probably one of the biggest winners on merge. His normal game is 25/50 and 10/20 but usually noone gives him action. Its kind of funny to see him sit at 1 table at every limit up to 100/200 all day with no action. He probably thought I was "taking a shot" since I was also on a few 200nl and 400nl tables at the time of the hand. This makes it more likely he expects me to be scared money and for him to bluff more.

I think the call is mostly read based and the river doesnt change THAT much. The villain is super aggro and i really dont know how his tendencies change on different rivers, but i figured my hand would be too strong to fold on river and i wouldnt have many hands that could call in his eyes.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2011, 11:42 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 418

ShoveorFold, I believe your a US player(could be wrong), what poker site do you use? I've stayed away for a longer time but I feel the hype of other sites getting shut down is finally gone(again could be wrong)
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2011, 04:25 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 737

I am a US player playing on Merge network through Carbon. I also am gonna start playing on black chip poker skin.

There is always a chance for sites getting shut down and money seized. So you should never put on what you can't afford to lose. Which is why i withdrew like 80% of my roll after black friday. I needed the security of not losing that money, and with the money I had left on, I was able to grind up from 200nl-->1knl in like 1 month of play.

FWIW, I think the chance of sites getting seized, and you losing your money is a lot lower, now that we know more about Black Friday. The DOJ has been surprisingly supportive of getting US players paid. Stars has paid out their players, and DOJ has been pretty big in attempting to recover money that Ray, Howard, and Chris stole from the players through FTP. Obviously merge is much smaller and really differently ran, but these things make me more and more confident in keeping money on.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2011, 11:33 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Russia, Moscow
Posts: 1,867

On that AT hand, I'm always folding preflop, unless the villain is an insane donk which is rare, and anyway he usually has me beat somehow
Do you agree that on the turn you beat only a bluff?

And another sick thing, suppose I win such a hand vs better player. On the next 1-2 orbits he doubles up, and then everything becomes even more tricky... he's aggro, we are deep, we have history - this makes my decisions much more complicated... I think you are not worried by such situations, and play w/o serious skews? Like scared, or maybe overaggro I don't know what...

And could you please post a bit different type of hands, mostly I've seen sick bluffcatchers... Probably the most interesting spots will be:
1) very thin vbets (especially multiple streets) vs a weak/strong player
2) tough laydowns, or maybe easy but very painful laydowns... when it's easy to see you are beat later, but in the hand you are too "bound" to it to let it go?
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2011, 12:37 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 737

Fold pf is too nitty for me. I am minraising so I can call a lot of 3bets in position. Stack depths are in my favor with my hand so even more reason. ATs is such a beautiful hand to play! It can make a royal flush! The best hand in the game.

I think most people fail to move up to mid/high stakes because they don't learn to adapt to the games. As the midstakes games get more aggressive, you can't simply play tptk only hands and hands where you are never dominated. I bet most people are scared of flopping an A and losing to AJ,AQ,AK, but thats only such a small part of the story. If you stove a competent player's range there, you aren't gonna be in that bad of shape.

ATs is such a sweet hand to have in 3b pot in aggressive games. You just need to make sure you dont puss out and shy away from making moves. It can make a ton of gutshot+overs, flushdraws, and basically a slew of awesome semibluff hands to jam the turn that we are making a ton of money if villain is even somewhat aggressive.

Where i "only beat a bluff" is COMPLETELY irrelevant to my decision. A better question, is am i a head of his range? Yes. Who cares if i only beat a bluff if i think a huge part of his range is bluffs.

The board has so many draws! Also, A REALLY important thing is the board texture and how the board comes out. When that turn falls, its a standard spot where villain has to bet the river if hes gonna bet the turn. So when I call turn I am also making the decision to call rivers since he wil prob be firing like 80% of rivers. I dont want to make this a strategy post, but this is a std spot where he has to fire all 3 or just 1 because that turn is a card that gives my range perceived equity. I'm gonna be turning a lot of pair+gutshots, pair+fd, etc. therfore he shouldnt(wouldnt) be just firing turn and checking river in most cases.

Playing deep is the most fun thing ever. I wish they had deep tables on merge =[ Even though you are deep, the game is still the same, just you gotta typecast each guy and decide if the guy has balls or not (only goes in 200bb with set, or not). Definitely against a super tricky and good regular I would hate to be deep oop, but I would simply have to adjust my game. But deep poker is probably the most "skill" requiring form of poker. I love it since it allows better players to gain larger edges. But I do have a dozen of hands where I've barreled off 300bb deep with air and got called. Also had a hand where I've tried to herocall 250bb and lost. But thats just variance.

i mainly post only funny and interesting hands just because they are amusing. The hands you describe are generally more standard and not very fun . I actually reformatted my computer yesterday and lost my database lol, but I shall try and find some more hands I suppose.
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2011, 05:26 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 737

I'm up around 10-12k since my last post. Not too sure on the exact amount b/c HEM keeps messing up. I'll just post few hands that are at least a little noteworthy and u can ask me and ill answer either a few or all or none...

[converted_hand][hand_history]Merge, $5/$10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 4 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

MP2: $3,737.46 (373.7 bb)
Hero (CO): $1,393.50 (139.4 bb)
SB: $1,036.75 (103.7 bb)
BB: $587.79 (58.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A:spade: T:spade:
MP2 raises to $28.75, Hero calls $28.75, SB folds, BB calls $18.75

Flop: ($91.25) 5:diamond: 3:spade: T:club: (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets $68.43, Hero calls $68.43, BB folds

Turn: ($228.11) J:diamond: (2 players)
MP2 bets $171.08, Hero calls $171.08

River: ($570.27) A:heart: (2 players)
MP2 bets $3,469.20 and is all-in, Hero calls $1,125.24 and is all-in

[spoil]Results: $2,820.75 pot ($2 rake)
Final Board: 5:diamond: 3:spade: T:club: J:diamond: A:heart:
MP2 showed Q:club: K:heart: and won $2,818.75 ($1,425.25 net)
Hero showed A:spade: T:spade: and lost (-$1,393.50 net)

[converted_hand][hand_history]Merge, $5/$10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

BB: $403.35 (40.3 bb)
UTG: $309.88 (31 bb)
MP: $1,024.05 (102.4 bb)
CO: $241.08 (24.1 bb)
BTN: $400 (40 bb)
Hero (SB): $452.20 (45.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K:heart: K:spade:
UTG raises to $12, MP raises to $20, 2 folds, Hero raises to $62, 2 folds, MP calls $42

Flop: ($140) 4:heart: 8:club: 4:spade: (2 players)
Hero bets $75, MP calls $75

Turn: ($290) A:heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $95, MP calls $95

River: ($480) 5:spade: (2 players)
Hero bets $220.20 and is all-in, MP calls $220.20

[spoil]Results: $920.40 pot ($3.50 rake)
Final Board: 4:heart: 8:club: 4:spade: A:heart: 5:spade:
MP showed Q:heart: Q:diamond: and lost (-$452.20 net)
Hero showed K:heart: K:spade: and won $916.90 ($464.70 net)

[converted_hand][hand_history]Merge, $5/$10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

UTG: $249.27 (24.9 bb)
MP: $522.64 (52.3 bb)
CO: $398 (39.8 bb)
BTN: $863.60 (86.4 bb)
SB: $430.20 (43 bb)
Hero (BB): $747.34 (74.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A:club: K:diamond:
UTG calls $4, 2 folds, BTN raises to $12, SB folds, Hero raises to $42, UTG folds, BTN calls $30

Flop: ($90) J:diamond: 7:diamond: A:heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $68, BTN calls $68

Turn: ($226) 9:diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $157, BTN calls $157

River: ($540) 5:heart: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $596.60 and is all-in, Hero calls $480.34

[spoil]Results: $1,500.68 pot ($3.50 rake)
Final Board: J:diamond: 7:diamond: A:heart: 9:diamond: 5:heart:
BTN showed J:heart: 9:heart: and won $1,497.18 ($749.84 net)
Hero showed A:club: K:diamond: and lost (-$747.34 net)

[converted_hand][hand_history]Merge, $5/$10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

BB: $280 (28 bb)
UTG: $280 (28 bb)
MP: $327 (32.7 bb)
CO: $493.10 (49.3 bb)
BTN: $612.04 (61.2 bb)
Hero (SB): $423.68 (42.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A:spade: T:diamond:
MP posts BB OOP, UTG folds, MP checks, 2 folds, Hero raises to $16, BB calls $12, MP calls $12

Flop: ($48) K:spade: 6:spade: A:club: (3 players)
Hero bets $24, BB calls $24, MP raises to $311 and is all-in, Hero raises to $407.68 and is all-in, BB folds

Turn: ($694) 2:spade: (2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($694) T:club: (2 players, 2 are all-in)

[spoil]Results: $694 pot ($3 rake)
Final Board: K:spade: 6:spade: A:club: 2:spade: T:club:
BB mucked and lost (-$40 net)
MP showed A:heart: 5:club: and lost (-$327 net)
Hero showed A:spade: T:diamond: and won $691 ($364 net)

i thought i had more interesting hands, but i my HEM is too messed up right now for me to find them =[
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2011, 10:00 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Russia, Moscow
Posts: 1,867

Hand 1:
Do you still like your call, and why?
For me the river is a fold, unless I see some good reason why would he bluff like this...

Hand 2:
nice hand, I hate to see that A though... definitely not going broke easily. Any particular things about this villain that made your decision clear?

Hand 3:
this sucks, sort of a cooler?

Hand 4:
quite a standard scenario, though some donks can sometimes show a better hand...
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2011, 01:03 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canton, Ohio
Posts: 2,016

Hand 1 is a sick overbet by him. I think I make the call, but would definitely hate it. Do you make the call with a weaker 2 pair? There's not a ton in your range but something like a TJs could of been played similar (probably raised on the turn though). Maybe even a random A3/A5s that you decided to play a bit loose preflop because it's 4 handed.

Hand 2 - I'm guessing you kept going because he would of shoved preflop or folded flop with an AK or AQ (he probably doesn't play AQ preflop though). I think the river bet is good because I doubt he is going to bluff as much as he tries to call light on this board. I think that's a bad call by him though. There aren't many hands you 4-bet preflop and play like this that don't have an Ace or KK.

Hand 3 - I think this is fine, but I just wanted to know why you decided to check/call instead of bet out. Were you specifically looking for the check/call because it widened his range of hands compared to what he would call with?

Hand 4 - I would of probably folded, but I like that you went with it. People posting OOP are so full of shit most of the time and your hand is pretty good. I'm too nitty for this though.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2011, 01:32 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Russia, Moscow
Posts: 1,867

Hand 4:
Don't know the mentality of NL1000 poster, but I see this exact line quite a lot at micros. Mostly he has a hand that is good in his eyes but he's prob unsure what to do with it, particularly due to stack sizes... looks like he hopes his shove will look bluffy and will be called lighter... so he shoves, sometimes called by a bluffcatcher... maybe this compensates losses to better hands, so the guy keeps doing it

For me, probably the most tricky hand is the 3rd one. It's an obvious spot to bluffcatch so thinking player will probably give up/take SD vs your check. But also the guy can think you give up and go for it with a missed draw, or maybe turns a made hand into a bluff, or try to outlevel you if some "dynamic" is going on... At the same time, he can definitely vbet a lot of better hands... I mean, even if I know smth about the villain it's more likely I will be guessing what to do on the river, rather than play confidently
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2011, 10:27 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 737

I think my call in 1 is still good. I would only consider folding MAYBE since i've been running pretty bad at 1k nl, but i dont let the money effect me and its only 1.5k. In 1, villain is the best player ive prob ever playd against. He is up millions from poker and anything below 25/50 he treats like micros. He plays something retarded like 45 vpip and loves to bully people. He is also very strong in poker theory and loves to shove when his range is uncapped and the opponent has a somewhat capped range. I can see so much of his random 76s type hands doing that in hand 1. He views the money as so little and loves to just show bluffs/bully people. Ive seen him 6betshove 200bb deep with K5s and stuff like that.
He has a lot of hands like this:
SB: $1,000 (100 bb)
BB: $1,951.64 (195.2 bb)
Hero (UTG): $1,107 (110.7 bb)
MP: $945 (94.5 bb)
CO: $852.41 (85.2 bb)
BTN: $398.33 (39.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Js Jc
Hero raises to $35, 4 folds, BB calls $25

Flop: ($75) Tc Th 6d (2 players)
BB bets $56.25, Hero calls $56.25

Turn: ($187.50) Ah (2 players)
BB bets $140.62, Hero calls $140.62

River: ($468.74) 9d (2 players)
BB bets $468.74, Hero folds

Results: $468.74 pot ($3 rake)
Final Board: Tc Th 6d Ah 9d
BB showed 2d 2c and won $465.74 ($233.87 net)
Hero mucked Js Jc and lost (-$231.87 net)

o theres something wrong with the handhistories and they are being recorded as incorrect stakes. Some are 400nl i think. I dont shortstack LOL.

too busy to comment on others right now, but i'll try to comment later
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