NL100: tried something different

[chinz]

I tried some more interesting lines... feel free to berate my play (I'm a huge fish ldo), but try to state your logic as clearly as possible please.



Hand 1

Villain is spewy 39/29/9 with a huge FPS (ie. fancy play syndrome). He seemed pretty clueless to me, he made some stupid bluffs against nits etc...

Anyway, I have backdoor SD and FDs, so my intention here was to call a shove, if he comes over the top. I tried to think what's the best way to induce more money from him (I'm not folding TP against him ever) and I think that my hands look a lot stronger if I just call, but this re-raise on a dry flop looks really fishy IMO. We're not so deep that it's the end of the world if he stacks me.

I understand I'm inducing a shove when I have just a bluffcatcher, but I do have backdoor draws for little extra equity if he somehow has me beat and I just can't imagine any value hand except T9 that this villain could have. I think he'd 3bet my CO open with any pocket pair... I don't have anything to proof that, just an assumption.

Weaktight is bugging, so I can't hide results (unless I hide my 3bet on the flop too). Try to ignore that.

Hand 2

UTG+1 was opening loose (26/21) and CO was 3betting over 10% (limited sample, something like 70 hands at that moment) so I tried cold-4betting... I was thinking cold-4bet should get a lot of respect but seems like I was wrong.

Anyway, I was surprised to see the UTG calling... Should I even cbet this flop? I'd figure his range is medium/big PPs like TT+ here very often... right?


----

EDIT:
Forgot to add pokerstoves to Hand 1, why I certainly am committed to call even with my bluffcatcher.

Board: 9s 4h Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.070% 44.25% 00.82% 26724 494.00 { Ts8s }
Hand 1: 54.930% 54.11% 00.82% 32678 494.00 { TT-99, 44, ATs, QJs, J8s, T9s, 87s, ATo, QJo, J8o, T9o, 87o }

...and he'd 3bet PPs most of the times preflop and he could also shove with a bare bluffs (overs or gutshots) maybe like 1-5% of the time.

[couriermike]

Hand 1

I like the flop 3-bet when you're good against his range but your hand is so weak, no need to let him see another card and hit his 6-outer.

Hand 2

CO folded pre, right? When UTG+1 just calls your 4-bet I'd think it's AK or QQ. There's more AK's than QQ's and you've repped a big pp, so I like a smaller c-bet like $45, expecting to fold AK. If he calls I'd just give up.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by couriermike

CO folded pre, right? When UTG+1 just calls your 4-bet I'd think it's AK or QQ. There's more AK's than QQ's and you've repped a big pp, so I like a smaller c-bet like $45, expecting to fold AK. If he calls I'd just give up.

I can't imagine decent aggressive player ever playing AK like that... and QQ is really on the edge. If I had to guess, my first guess would be JJ and QQ maybe the second one.

Spoiler:
I cbet, he shoves, I fold.

[given1982]

1 - He's much more likely to bluff by betting the turn than 4betting the flop, so I like to call the flop raise and check/shove the turn if you're committed to going with the hand.

2 - The 4bet is pretty meh. I'd like it a lot better with a LP opener and a 3bettor in LP or in the blinds. I'd just give up on the flop. The only hand that he might fold is AQ.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by given1982

1 - He's much more likely to bluff by betting the turn than 4betting the flop, so I like to call the flop raise and check/shove the turn if you're committed to going with the hand.

We are OOP and if we just call, our hand looks a lot like TP or overpair, which allows him to play pretty perfect against us in position, if he can hand read at all.

There was similar situation on Brian Townsend's CR NL200 video on raggy flop where KK got checkraised and he said that bet-calling would be the absolute worst play, because it shows our hand face up and allows our opponent to play very good against our range. So if I just call, shouldn't I be check-folding the turn most likely? Any competent player should check back the turn with anything worse than T9.

I don't know if this villain is really thinking about it or just keeps on betting (maybe he does), but I do think that the same concept applies here. If I knew villain was a good thinking player (he probably wasn't), calling would be very bad... right?

If I was in position, I would have just called. You would just call against a maniac, even out of position? Actually... let's ask this question the other way round: how would you have played this hand when you know that this villain will play back at you a lot? Would you have tried something like check-calling the flop, bet/call + check/fold or bet/call + check/shove?

EDIT: I guess bet/fold is also an option :P

2 - The 4bet is pretty meh.

Yeah, could be. I'd like it more if I had some Ax hand at least.

I'd like it a lot better with a LP opener and a 3bettor in LP or in the blinds.

I'm never getting hands like AK or QQ/JJ to even think about folding if they're like BTN and SB and I'm on BB, because it just looks a lot like 4bet-resteal... right? Or am I giving other players too much respect by thinking so?

Even with hands like AK and QQ they'd have really hard time continuing here IMO, when I cold-4bet against MP and CO. I hadn't made any 4bet bluffs earlier.

I'd just give up on the flop. The only hand that he might fold is AQ.

On the flop I kinda felt like an idiot when I got shoved on, thinking I should have just given up there... I just wanted to confirm that it isn't just being result oriented and that was a bad cbet.

[Michaellawrw]

I am so bad at the math side of things and I understand your equity in the pot, but aren't you basically committing yourself ? There are a few scary turns,but I just can't see us hand being best and I think he is either shoving or folding on this flop.
Back to being OOP sucks but with a 39/29/9 OTB when I am in the CO, I am moving tables or getting position on him. T8s is good to raise here but you realize a little under half the time you will be playing the hand with him OOP against him so we need to play preflop what happens. With all these back door draw lets not bloat the pot so on the turn we are commited. If he is spewy lets find a better spot and just play poker in this hand because if he is as spewy as you say he is he will shove draws on this flop and you cite you want to call a shove, but I think this takes away 87o out of his range and puts a tough decision. I mean even seeing QJs with bd draws isn't fun to watch.

2nd hand I like the creativity but JTo is tough because it plays well post when we put little in pre. At this point I say c/f just because flatting a cold 4bet is TT+ more than likely JJ+ and AK

[given1982]

Originally Posted by chinz

We are OOP and if we just call, our hand looks a lot like TP or overpair, which allows him to play pretty perfect against us in position, if he can hand read at all.

There was similar situation on Brian Townsend's CR NL200 video on raggy flop where KK got checkraised and he said that bet-calling would be the absolute worst play, because it shows our hand face up and allows our opponent to play very good against our range. So if I just call, shouldn't I be check-folding the turn most likely? Any competent player should check back the turn with anything worse than T9.

I don't know if this villain is really thinking about it or just keeps on betting (maybe he does), but I do think that the same concept applies here. If I knew villain was a good thinking player (he probably wasn't), calling would be very bad... right?

If I was in position, I would have just called. You would just call against a maniac, even out of position? Actually... let's ask this question the other way round: how would you have played this hand when you know that this villain will play back at you a lot? Would you have tried something like check-calling the flop, bet/call + check/fold or bet/call + check/shove?

EDIT: I guess bet/fold is also an option :P

This is a moving target. In the OP villain is "pretty clueless" and making "stupid bluffs." Now he's going to know exactly what you have when you bet/call the flop. Against some LAGmonkey, unless he's been raising a lot of your cbets and you've been folding a lot, I don't think he's going to interpret bet/call as stronger than bet/3bet.

Originally Posted by chinz

I'm never getting hands like AK or QQ/JJ to even think about folding if they're like BTN and SB and I'm on BB, because it just looks a lot like 4bet-resteal... right? Or am I giving other players too much respect by thinking so?

Even with hands like AK and QQ they'd have really hard time continuing here IMO, when I cold-4bet against MP and CO. I hadn't made any 4bet bluffs earlier.

I don't think this should really be your goal with a cold 4bet bluff. You want to do it when everyone's ranges are as wide as possible. Unless you're an ubernit, I don't think people are going to be folding those hands preflop regardless of position (except maybe JJ).

[chinz]

Originally Posted by given1982

This is a moving target. In the OP villain is "pretty clueless" and making "stupid bluffs." Now he's going to know exactly what you have when you bet/call the flop. Against some LAGmonkey, unless he's been raising a lot of your cbets and you've been folding a lot, I don't think he's going to interpret bet/call as stronger than bet/3bet.

So you think that against a bad player and/or maniac we should just bet/call here? If he was a good LAG, would that change it somehow... and how would you play in that case?

From what I've seen he looked like a complete maniac, but I have to admit that the sample wasn't too big. I could tell for sure that he is bad and overaggro, but not if he's totally crazy.

I don't think this should really be your goal with a cold 4bet bluff. You want to do it when everyone's ranges are as wide as possible. Unless you're an ubernit, I don't think people are going to be folding those hands preflop regardless of position (except maybe JJ).

Original raiser has both 3bettor and cold-4bettor behind him, I don't see how he could continue with anything else than KK+... And I think it's reasonable even for 3bettor to fold QQ, tho I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't.

Thanks for opinions anyway, you weren't as harsh as I expected... or maybe you've getting bored trying to talk sense into fish

I just can't see us hand being best and I think he is either shoving or folding on this flop.

I've seen him 4bet/fold pre and check/raise/fold flops two times already, and I hadn't sat in that table for too long... How can you assume we're beat here when 44 and T9 are the only hands (he wouldn't be likely to 3bet) that beat us. Combinatorics ldo, he's (semi?)bluffing.

[AdrienD]

Hand 1: 4betting this flop and calling it off vs him is ok but I think its marginal and you are much better off just calling, and calling down. You say this looks strong but forget that this is a fish that has no clue what your range is and just wants to win every pot he plays.

Hand 2: This is pretty easy check and give up. I don't really like cold 4betting JTo, what will you do if you flop top pair on a dry board? It will just put you in dificult situations.

Also from which position was CO 3betting from?
I find that at these stakes people tend to 3bet light BvB and blinds vs LP but not IP.

[given1982]

Originally Posted by chinz

So you think that against a bad player and/or maniac we should just bet/call here? If he was a good LAG, would that change it somehow... and how would you play in that case?

Against someone good I probably just bet/fold, unless there was lots of history, which would dictate how I would proceed.