Turned 2 pair, floated, villain jams pot on river

[Silverthunder]

Title should be: turned 2 pair, floated, villain fires the river; I had this confused with another hand there for a second.

Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($59.75)
MP ($13.35)
CO ($136.45)
Button ($85.65)
Hero (SB) ($110.30)
BB ($96)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J:diamond:, 4:diamond:
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, CO calls $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.50, BB checks

Flop: ($4) 5:spade:, J:club:, 6:club: (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets $1, Hero calls $1, BB calls $1, UTG calls $1

Turn: ($8) 4:club: (4 players)
Hero bets $5, BB calls $5, 2 folds

River: ($18) 5:diamond: (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $10, Hero folds

Total pot: $18

[tmiby]

...turn brought flush. river brought another pair. maybe gave him trips.
you play jj and 55 with 6 kicker. without reads, I fold.

EDIT: I mean I don't see him do that with a six. and against the rest of his range we're behind or at best in a split situation.

[Silverthunder]

Originally Posted by tmiby

...turn brought flush. river brought another pair. maybe gave him trips.
you play jj and 55 with 6 kicker. without reads, I fold.

EDIT: I mean I don't see him do that with a six. and against the rest of his range we're behind or at best in a split situation.

yea, there really isn't anything that I am beating.

This isn't a very interesting hand.. Not too much interesting happened in that session.

[mxrider]

There actually is a couple of interesting thoughts on this hand and it's not the river. Preflop, just let this go unless you are very good at postflop play. You have a suited hand and getting great odds, but you have a crap hand and will be OOP the entire time. Once in, bet the flop. You likely have the best hand with top pair. Try and take the pot now.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by mxrider

There actually is a couple of interesting thoughts on this hand and it's not the river. Preflop, just let this go unless you are very good at postflop play. You have a suited hand and getting great odds, but you have a crap hand and will be OOP the entire time. Once in, bet the flop. You likely have the best hand with top pair. Try and take the pot now.

Agreed. On LHE this would be "omg omg omg i'm getting ultra cheap multiway flop with suited J" but in NL negative implied odds (folding TP makes me cry, but we don't have a kicker) and the fact that only strong hand this hand could make is a flush (most of the times only a draw) make this a fold pre.



I would also like to donkbet (close to) full pot here on the flopwith TP like always in limped pot.

If we just check, I would always raise that flop bet, it's just so weak... If he 3bets, we can easily fold and in other cases we should get a free cards to the river like always (and there's some value, because he would bet-call FDs or OESD if 78 is in his range).

I don't think that he'd bet $1 to $4 pot with strong (TJ+) jack like ever on the flop, so my flop raise would be pretty much for value, but we also get him to check better made hands and FDs on blank turns most of the time, thus making it easier for us.

[Silverthunder]

Originally Posted by mxrider

There actually is a couple of interesting thoughts on this hand and it's not the river. Preflop, just let this go unless you are very good at postflop play. You have a suited hand and getting great odds, but you have a crap hand and will be OOP the entire time. Once in, bet the flop. You likely have the best hand with top pair. Try and take the pot now.

bet into 3 players? We are just trying to get value from the draws, I guess. Ok, makes some sense. The only thing is that these limpers are limping all kinds of S*** the bottom of the limping range for donks is any one broadway and and suited cards. J7o is in their range.. By check calling, we can sometime see who has the jack or the 2 pair or, we can pick off a bluff from the late position better. I like turning my hand into a bluff catcher & checking for value lol.

If you know that the BB almost never raises to steal limper's money (not that I had that read, but sometimes that is the case) it can be okay to complete there. These players can be really passive & let you get to showdown with your hand. Of course, in a big multiway pot you have to bet to get people out of the hand so that they cannot catch their cards.

I don't think that he'd bet $1 to $4 pot with strong (TJ+) jack like ever on the flop, so my flop raise would be pretty much for value, but we also get him to check better made hands and FDs on blank turns most of the time, thus making it easier for us.

Maybe not at this limit, but I've seen some crazy stuff with bet sizing. Here is a line for the nuts: min bet, min bet, half pot. I have seen that.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by Silverthunder

bet into 3 players? We are just trying to get value from the draws, I guess.

When we bet, we don't valuetown ourself when we are crushed, but the fact that there's draws (and PPs and midpair) that would call, probably make it +EV even as a valuebet.

By far our main reason for betting is to take the pot down, because we don't like any turn card >J or any club. The most profitable way to play this OOP is to take the initiative yourself. Their calling range is weaker here is weaker than betting range, and you don't give free 2-11 outers to them.

[Silverthunder]

Originally Posted by chinz

When we bet, we don't valuetown ourself when we are crushed, but the fact that there's draws (and PPs and midpair) that would call, probably make it +EV even as a valuebet.

By far our main reason for betting is to take the pot down, because we don't like any turn card >J or any club. The most profitable way to play this OOP is to take the initiative yourself.

ok, but if there wwere no draws, then we might just check, right? Check for value by catching a bluff.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by Silverthunder

ok, but if there wwere no draws, then we might just check, right? Check for value by catching a bluff.

Bluffing in limped multiway pots is so rare compared to someone having better hand and valuebetting, that I'd rather bet myself. A lot of weaker made hands will check behind, but will call at least one bet.

This is also to balance the fact that I would very often donkbet 56Jr board as a bluff in 3way pot.

[given1982]

Fold preflop; bet the flop; tell us more about villain to get intelligent comments about the river.