NL100: Valueshove river?

[chinz]

Button: seat 6
Players in round: 5
Seat 9: Hero ($369.40)
Seat 1: in0d1k ($110.70)
Seat 3: SickCallBeny ($93)
Seat 5: -Andersons- ($114.20)
Seat 6: andykev ($83.45)
Hero posts small blind ($0.50)
in0d1k posts big blind ($1)
---
Dealing pocket cards
Dealing to Hero: [Qs, Qd]
SickCallBeny folds
-Andersons- folds
andykev calls $1
Hero raises $4.50 to $5
in0d1k folds
andykev calls $4
--- Dealing flop [2d, 9d, Jc]
Hero bets $8
andykev calls $8
--- Dealing turn [Ks]
Hero bets $18
andykev calls $18
--- Dealing river [Kc]
valueshove?!?!


What's your line here on the river? Villain is a bad player and loosepassive callingstation (something like 50/5/1 and I've seen him make bad calldowns earlier). Is rivershove too thin or standard? Or would you prefer betting little less than shove? Something else?

[urbansprawler]

Pretty standard shove imo.

[csfanatikdbz]

What do you think villain has here, what hands is he going to consider calling you with here?

[urbansprawler]

Originally Posted by chinz

Villain is a bad player and loosepassive callingstation (something like 50/5/1 and I've seen him make bad calldowns earlier).

Villain will never fold top pair and probably not second pair. AWWW EEENNN

[csfanatikdbz]

Normally I wouldn't be shoving in this situation. But if you believe you are in the lead vs this player, AND that they will call an overshove, yeah do it. A shove here would be over 2x pot and I would be surprised if even a bad player would make that call with TP or 2nd pair. I would expect Villain would think you had a king. It seems to me you would generally get called when beat or by AJ. I would probably bet around 25 unless I thought I had a reason to do something different.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by csfanatikdbz

Normally I wouldn't be shoving in this situation. But if you believe you are in the lead vs this player, AND that they will call an overshove, yeah do it. A shove here would be over 2x pot and I would be surprised if even a bad player would make that call with TP or 2nd pair. I would expect Villain would think you had a king. It seems to me you would generally get called when beat or by AJ. I would probably bet around 25 unless I thought I had a reason to do something different.

Shoving is not an overbet and I'm almost 100% sure that he'd never fold any J here, don't know about 9 tho. Pot is $63 on the river and he has about $52 behind... so it's about 80% of the pot.

Villain is a callingstation, he'd probably shove the turn with KJ/K9/QT (at least some of the time) and keep calling with worse, and I have blockers for KQ and QT... so yes, combinatoricly I think I am slightly ahead of him.

The other reason for betting/shoving this is that my hand is too strong to fold and check/calling is bad against a player like this. So even if the shove is somewhat close to breakeven in value, it might still be the best way to play this.

[csfanatikdbz]

Originally Posted by chinz

The other reason for betting/shoving this is that my hand is too strong to fold and check/calling is bad against a player like this. So even if the shove is somewhat close to breakeven in value, it might still be the best way to play this.

Why is C/C any different in this situation from shoving? He's not going to fold a better hand than yours, so you're getting zero fold equity, at least from this particular villain. But if you're shoving because its the best way to get his money in the pot, since he is so passive, then that makes sense.

And yeah, you're right about the pot size, it was late and I guess I just counted half the pot for some reason...

So based on your read, I don't hate a shove here.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by csfanatikdbz

Why is C/C any different in this situation from shoving?

He's not valuebetting ultra light (-> he's river betting range is much stronger than his river calling range) but he's not folding any J or maybe not even 9x to my rivershove.

Is there any reason why I'd rather check/call than shove myself or check/fold?

[Richy47]

I like a shove against the villain you are up against here. Definitely a lot of Jx type hands calling you and quite possibly a few that are weaker than that.

[Silverthunder]

seems like an all-in if there are really a lot of Jx hands in his calling range. I think that what you may have to watch out for is how strong that read really is.