100 NL 4 bet sizing 200BB deep.

[Silverthunder]

typo in title: 5 bet sizing.

Cake Poker - Hand History


How does this look? I don't know how to figure out bet sizing.

I was loving it when I got dealt this hand. I was being Mr Aggro monkey 3 better from the blinds vs this Russian chick. I think I 3 bet her from the blinds, 2 orbits back to back. I got to showdown the 2nd time with just a cbet & showed 85s air. When I was dealt this hand, I was fist pumping as I think this was just 2 orbits after the 58s.

I didnt have any notes except that she suddenly showed up a couple of my tables. Also, she is 7th place this week (and week is almost over so np with sample size) in the gold card race so that is a lot of grinding. Seven out of like 7k players; there is no way you can get there without grinding at least a lot of 3/6 or mass multitabling 2/4, right?

[csfanatikdbz]

I don't understand the min raise, it turns your hand face up if you have AA, and if you don't, it gives her odds to call and a chance to catch up to you. I get a NEAR-min raise like 65 or something. But before that it looks pretty standard.

[Silverthunder]

Originally Posted by csfanatikdbz

I don't understand the min raise, it turns your hand face up if you have AA, and if you don't, it gives her odds to call and a chance to catch up to you. I get a NEAR-min raise like 65 or something. But before that it looks pretty standard.

You can only put like a quarter of your stack in with the 5 bet (or 4 bet when 100 BB deep); otherwise you are committed & you have to insta call the shove. Right?

FWIW, I had AKo; I am not sure if I would have called the shove, probably not. Regs are too nitty this deep.

[mxrider]

grrrr....can't read stacks properly

200bb deep, things change a bit. Being oop I might just flat the 4b here and play postflop. Prior to 5betting, you have to know what you are going to do should they shove. This is why it sucks soooo bad to be oop even with a strong hand. I think that I'm likely to 5b to around 60-65 here if I have a good read on my opponent that they can 3b lightly and based on what you said, they must be able to given their leaderboard stats and I'm likely to call a shove from that person.

[Silverthunder]

Originally Posted by mxrider

grrrr....can't read stacks properly

200bb deep, things change a bit. Being oop I might just flat the 4b here and play postflop. Prior to 5betting, you have to know what you are going to do should they shove. This is why it sucks soooo bad to be oop even with a strong hand. I think that I'm likely to 5b to around 60-65 here if I have a good read on my opponent that they can 3b lightly and based on what you said, they must be able to given their leaderboard stats and I'm likely to call a shove from that person.

60-65 - aren't you pot committing yourself. YOu are going to have to snap call a shove if you go that high, right?

I sorta see your argument for instacall the 4 bet. WE don't want to play a 5 bet pot OOP.

Without the history do you insta-put a villain on AA when they want to stack off 200 BB deep?

Another question, put yourself in villain's shoes. They should definitely consider calling & playing in position. What are the odds of villain hitting 2 pair? Is it like 5%?

Btw, in the 58s hand, villain had called my 3 bet with snowmen (pocket 8s)

[mxrider]

Well, let's see if we are pot committed here:

If we pop it to 60 and button shoves, we have to call $129.60 to win $379.20 we need to have 34% equity to call a shove and 200bb deep I think we can narrow villains hands to AA and KK most of the time and that leaves us with only 18.5% equity and can easily fold.

[Silverthunder]

Originally Posted by mxrider

Well, let's see if we are pot committed here:

If we pop it to 60 and button shoves, we have to call $129.60 to win $379.20 we need to have 34% equity to call a shove and 200bb deep I think we can narrow villains hands to AA and KK most of the time and that leaves us with only 18.5% equity and can easily fold.

well, in this hand, AK might be in the villain's shoving range, right? In such a case, we would have the proper amount of equity toc all given your larger bet size. Also, if villain flats the 5 bet, it makes it even tougher to play OOP post flop. If we check on the flop and villain bets, we might not have any fold equity with a c/r.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by mxrider

Well, let's see if we are pot committed here:

If we pop it to 60 and button shoves, we have to call $129.60 to win $379.20 we need to have 34% equity to call a shove and 200bb deep I think we can narrow villains hands to AA and KK most of the time and that leaves us with only 18.5% equity and can easily fold.

Anyone folding QQ or AK for 190bb in BTN vs blinds against another decent regular is a bad player IMO. =P

If villain made a normal sized 4bet for these stacks (something closer to 35bb), I would just shove here. When he 4bets this small, either small 5bet or 5bet shoving is OK imo.

If you don't think that your image is aggromonkey enough to profitably get it in here and/or villain is bad nit who isn't adjusting right and 4bet-bluffing a lot, it's OK to call a 4bet with these stack sizes, especially when he makes it so small (compared to stacks).

If we know/assume that villain is an experienced player who's also playing higher stakes, he should have AK in his 4bet-calling range and HUGE part of his 4betting range should be bluffs here.

[mxrider]

Originally Posted by chinz

If villain made a normal sized 4bet for these stacks (something closer to 35bb), I would just shove here. When he 4bets this small, either small 5bet or 5bet shoving is OK imo.

I think this is an important distinction that I had overlooked. Villain 4b based on 100bb stacks and not 200bb. Now, how to interpret that is a different situation alltogether. I still like a 5b to 65 and if we can gather that they whould shove QQ+ and AK then I can call the shove.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by mxrider

I think this is an important distinction that I had overlooked. Villain 4b based on 100bb stacks and not 200bb. Now, how to interpret that is a different situation alltogether. I still like a 5b to 65 and if we can gather that they whould shove QQ+ and AK then I can call the shove.

Yeah. I don't really like 5betting if we fold to shove, but against some players it would be better than 5bet/calling probably... (BTW IT'S STILL NOT GOOD, THOSE PLAYERS NEVER 4BET BLUFF)

So, if the villain was really nitty (one of those awful 20/17/2 guys) I wouldn't 5bet in the first place... against good players who I'm assuming to adjust at all to my image, I would shove this over 4bet.

I'm running at around 30/26 with 9% 3bet lately, so if OPs image is much nittyer, getting it in might not be that good even against this opponent, who we assume knows that he should be 4bet-bluffing here quite often at least against me.