100NL (Rush) 200bb deep facing river crai

[mxrider]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($108.05)
MP ($96.50)
Hero (CO) ($484.15)
Button ($100)
SB ($201.25)
BB ($419.70)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 4, A
2 folds, Hero bets $3.50, 1 fold, SB calls $3, 1 fold

Flop: ($8) 8, K, Q (2 players)
SB bets $8, Hero calls $8

Turn: ($24) Q (2 players)
SB bets $24, Hero calls $24

River: ($72) 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $50, SB raises to $165.75 (All-In), Hero???

Total pot: $403.50 | Rake: $3

[Colossos159]

damn, i would puke and fold again being 200bb deep

[tmiby]

this is hard to play deep.

whats about raising turn? basically we are afraid of 88 or KQ, but he also does that with AQ...


very ugly C/r on river...man.

I really don't know what to do on river as played. I really tend to raise turn and see where I am.

[podbelski]

Sick, but I think bluffs in his range, or made hands turned into bluffs.

I don't get why would he check the river with a boat to you? He can't hope you will bet it often... So, your flush is a bluffcatcher, meh, this is rush - no reads, either decision is not bad IMO. Calling is higher variance.

Maybe it was Chinz or Qgel playing and making sick river move with AJ

[chinz]

In normal ring games I could possibly call if I think villain is 3betting 88 and KQ most of the time, ie. regulars with wide but not ultra-polarized 3betting range. Your range has a lot of Qx hands (at least to some people, who'd expect you to raise donkbets with at least strong TPs) and flushes (most of which not nutted) and if villain is a thinking player, he should know you can't have a full house here.

If you don't have any history, I'll fold. If villain is a good regular I think I'll call just out of curiosity (and because I expect them to 3bet KQ [and 88 sometimes] against my LP raise).

I don't have any experience from those rush games, idk if this changes anything.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by podbelski

I don't get why would he check the river with a boat to you?

Especially if he has 88, he should imo always go for check-raise on the river. (because it doesn't reduce half of our Qx hands, unlike KQ)

When we just call the flop (we're very unlikely to slowplay KQ, QQ or KK) our range is a few weaker Ks (KJ, KT, K9... possibly AK), a lot of different Qx hands and flushdraws...

It's unlikely he's gonna get 3 streets of value from something like KT anyway, so he can as well go for check/raise because we'll bet our all Qx and all flushes when he checks... and people are not giving river check/raises even near as much respect as they should -> he can expect to get stacks in at least vs. flushes.

[urbansprawler]

70 to call 240, odds of roughly 3.5:1 meaning ~25% equity.

6 combos of 88, 4 of KQ. This means you need only 4 bluff combos or AQ to make the call. Pretty thin call obviously in a super-sick spot, but if you think villain can ever have 4 bluff combos or AQ here, or really just 4 combos of something, you should call.

Now playing an unknown, that seems like a reasonable assumption to me and I would snap-call.

If we include KK/QQ in his range it's 7 more combinations of hands that beat us. So 19 bad combos means you need 6 or 7 bluff combos in his range (or AQ) to call.

FWIW I think a lot of retards do this with QJ/QJ or a weak flush as well.

[chinz]

Originally Posted by urbansprawler

6 combos of 88, 4 of KQ. This means you need only 4 bluff combos or AQ to make the call. Pretty thin call obviously in a super-sick spot, but if you think villain can ever have 4 bluff combos or AQ here, or really just 4 combos of something, you should call.

Including AQ in his range is just stupid imo, unless villain is something like 80/10 completely clueless fish (and they are usually overscared of flushes btw!)

FWIW I think a lot of retards do this with QJ/QJ or a weak flush as well.

Weak flush is possible, but as there is Kc and Qc on the board and we have Ac, there isn't too many possible (OOP calling range) flushdraws he should have... On the other hand, ~all his flushes had compodraws on the flop, which probably make people more likely to donkbet.

But I'm not really expecting to ever see worse hands valueshoving here, if we beat him it's probably like 95% bluffs (could be hand like K8 turned into a bluff even)

[Qgel]

I would never take that line with anything against mx :P Well.. maybe if I was drunk or really high.. ahem..

I would raise that donk lead on the flop like always with the nut flush draw. It puts so much pressure on him when you're deep in a situation where he can't (presumably) have the nuts nor 2nd nuts but we, on the other hand, can. I think we get bet/3bet just about never. I mean, maybe with 88 or JTcc and maybe with KQ but that's it. But there's a good chance he'll just flat with those hands as well afraid of you having the nuts.

Those hands aside, there are so many weaker ones that he will just have to fold either on the flop or on a later street that it's a profitable bluff even with a little bit of equity and in this case we have a lot of equity + position.

And lastly we build a pot for the times that we either cooler him (flush over flush) or he get's stubborn with his 2 pair or a set or some straight that he picks up and decides to put 200bbs in.

As played I think river is a fold readless just because it's kinda stupid to CRAI with anything less than a nut flush simply because we have at least trips on this river when we bet and some people might even be scared of valuebetting trips. That said, people still end up doing stupid things But until we know that about our opponent we should fold.

[chinz]

Qgel:

This is rush so this is kind of unrelevant, but anyway...

If donkbettor is a good regular he's hands should pretty much all be either donkbet/3bet hands or pure bluffs (which we are ahead of!). Good player isn't donkbetting hand like KJ or QJ here... It's more likely to be KQ, 88, flushdraws, compodraws, maybe something like oesd.

Against a fish this is probably good, but if a regular is donkbetting it's either complete bluff or a hand he's trying to induce a raise with so he can 3bet.

With these stack sizes it could probably be a bit different, because if we raise his donkbet I don't really think he would 3bet us with KQ (this is assuming he's a tricky good player, not a fish donkbetting), so we're actually getting 2 free cards against most of his inducing-range too if we raise.