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Old 07-08-2010, 01:52 PM
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Default NL100 shallow: TPMK+FD on paired board OOP

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed)

MP ($93.65)
CO ($45.20)
Button ($40)
Hero (SB) ($41.40)
BB ($24.10)
UTG ($35.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, J
1 fold, MP bets $3, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.50, BB calls $2

Flop: ($9) Q, 10, 5 (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP bets $7, Hero calls $7, 1 fold

Turn: ($23) 10 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $10, Hero?

The villain is a breakeven reg, stats are 21/17/7.3AF/50cb over about 100 hands. Haven't been involved in substantial pots with him earlier, and have no specific reads.

I like calling pre because of the loose-passive fish to my left, which came along.
As played, I'm almost sure I have no FE on the flop, and I think I'm flipping at best with his range if we get it in somehow, so don't like to check-raise his cbet. Also, I wan't the fish to stay in the pot as well, so check-called.
When he bets the turn, I think I'm behind or dead most often, or freerolling vs QJ. I guess there is a possibility he plays JJ like this as well.

I'm thinking that leading the flop might be a good play too, if the fish calls and the MP raises I guess it's a better way to go all-in than to check-raise...

Anyway, plz comment!
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Old 07-08-2010, 03:41 PM
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Don't like the call pre... at all. Just stove that preflop; we are behind quite a bit.
How many hands did you have for the Cbet-stat? Should be around 10-15 or so I guess... so it basically tells us nothing.
If he Cbets no semi-bluffs, we are slightly behind - but turn/river will be awefull to play and we are likely to make a larger mistake there; if he Cbets some amount of draws or Cbets some air, we are slightly ahead of his calling range and some have FE. So why not c/r flop?
As played: Turn is rly ugly. The play is just a guessing game...
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Old 07-08-2010, 03:59 PM
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How deep the BB-fish should be for you to call this pre? As I said, I was calling because of his extra moneys in the pot.

The raiser put a strong cbet into 2 people, and I'm almost sure he should know he will likely see a call or check-raise, so he has a good draw or a strong made hand (I think JJ+ or AT+). With a draw, I expect him to take a free card on the turn.

Again, if you think check-raising is good here then I like bet-3bet more, cause this way I'm likely getting additional call from a fish.
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Old 07-08-2010, 04:05 PM
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I don't like the call, cause the raiser shouldn't raise too much from MP. And QJ is super dominated in those spots. If we had position on the fish and he already called it would be diffrent... but in this spot a call pre is bad imo.
You see... you call QJs and hit the absolut gin-flop basically. And you still feel like getting it in is not good... What do you do on the flops you hit 95% of the time?

Hm, yes. Bet-3bet is good on the flop.
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Old 07-08-2010, 04:24 PM
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Well yes... hitting TP+FD and feeling not happy about all-in means it's better to fold it pre
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Old 08-07-2010, 06:39 AM
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As played call down.

QJo KJo is one thing, but suitedness increases your equity a fair amount. Just shoving flop to flip with KK AA AKhh is okay. I think call preflop is good. Folding is a bit too nitty, and either it is close, and calling is not awful.

Why are you shallow though?
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Old 08-10-2010, 01:53 PM
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My understanding is suitedness increases the equity not that much to be honored for it, the more important thing is it catches flushdraws or backdoor FDs often, this allows to proceed with the hand farther. Preflop, there is not too big of a difference in equity between QJs and QJo.

I decided to try shallow games specifically, so that's why all my recent hands are "shallow" The amount of classic fishes at these games are ridiculously high.

Due to internet problems and vacation time, I've played a lot less hands this summer, so just sticking to these shallow tables and not bothering to play regular games. I expect to "move up" in a month or so.

Which stakes/games do you play regularly?
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Old 08-11-2010, 08:49 AM
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Post flop playability is a form of equity, not just raw equity.

Having QJs gives you more equity when you stack off. The majority of the times you will still have the same equity, but there are more spots where you have decent equity against the villain's range. Like here, you have a lot of equity vs AA KK where if you had QJo you'd need to flop two pair + to really have good equity vs a tight range.

19% vs 15% against AA is 4% difference, but 4% is more than a quarter of 15% of course, if you think about it that way. 4% is not really that small a %, it's fairly significant. Of course against a looser range the difference becomes smaller relatively, but then you'd have just about enough equity to call.

Against a range of: "22+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+,KQo", QJs has 40.3%, 37%. Not a huge difference, but bother are playable against a weaker player, but playing only suited gives you more postflop playability to peel and check/raise, and doesn't overly bloats your VPIP in the SB due to fewer combinations.

In fact, having suitedness increases your flop c/r range with draws and combo draws, meaning that your opponent's cbet becomes a lot less profitable. It is not just raw equity which gives him trouble it's you having draws in your range which balances your c/r which is bad for him.

I play at mid stakes.

Last edited by PsycheStatic; 08-11-2010 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 08-11-2010, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDeKay View Post
I don't like the call, cause the raiser shouldn't raise too much from MP. And QJ is super dominated in those spots. If we had position on the fish and he already called it would be diffrent... but in this spot a call pre is bad imo.
You see... you call QJs and hit the absolut gin-flop basically. And you still feel like getting it in is not good... What do you do on the flops you hit 95% of the time?

Hm, yes. Bet-3bet is good on the flop.
Yeah I'd lead this board (but fold pre, this hand sucks calling 40bb deep) but as played call-down and fold/evaluate unimproved is fine.
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