VIDEO DISCUSSION: no eff eks 6 - Cake 20nl HUHU

[Trikkur]

**THIS THREAD IS FOR DISCUSSION OF no eff eks 6 - Cake 20nl HUHU**

I play a single table of HU $20nl on Cake Poker for about 50 minutes. I go up against two different TAGy opponents of greatly different skill sets. Definitely worth watching if you're looking to get into HU NL and aren't sure what to expect from the regs. Pretty fun hand on the 2nd hand in... I'm a little curious what people think of my line, although I'm fairly sure everyone would agree with stacking off in the end.First opponent was definitely a solid TAG while the second was more of a TAG-fish. Really shows the contrast between playing a good tight game and a bad tight game.As always critiques of my play are welcome, although I'd much rather you discuss specifics rather than just saying "wow, you suck" and running along. Not a big deal though, watch, enjoy, and prosper!

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[no eff eks]

Hey guys... not sure why but the audio is a couple seconds ahead of the video the entire time. Really strange since it was fine before I rendered it, but I don't think it should be a big deal. The only strange thing is that I seem to know what's going to happen before it happens a couple times, otherwise it's not really noticeable.

[Qgel]

I checked it out

On the QT hand in the beginning the CRAI on the river is pure spew and it's not even close. I am trying to think of a good reason for that play and I can't think of a single one. None. Maybe to push him off a split but I doubt anyone's folding a Q in that spot.

You should really try to not 3bet light on your 3rd 3bet. You're just not gonna get much respect which is exactly what happened.

07:40 Should be a standard cbet. I mean you even pointed out that his range is broadways and pocket pairs, so why not get him to fold out broadways? He might float but we don't know that. This could easily be a very profitable cbet. Not to mention that we can barrel him off on quite a few turn cards.
I don't hate C/folding either because he is not very likely to give us credit and it is the 1st time he called us but cbetting is most likely more +EV.

09:00 You confused me with your commentary on your reasoning for 3betting but anyway I think it's better to flat 88 because it's gonna be very hard to play them in a 3bet pot OOP whereas in a raised pot you can get to showdown more easily and have the best hand more often than not.

13:13 whoa your plan was to raise/fold 77 on the flop? That is just wrong imo. you have to either call because you think he will barrel off with airballs, raise/call for protection and hoping he's on a draw or to just fold because he's showing a lot of strength, especially for cbetting that board.

28:06 Nothing big but I disliked the fact that you changed your cbet sizing for when you hit TP.

I don't understand why you call him a Tagfish. He was just big clueless fish. which leads me to

34-35 mins in the J7o hand. I hate your play the whole way except for the preflop raise. You PUT him on a stronger hand than yours and still try to raise and barrel him off ?! Why would you ever expect this guy to fold a hand better than yours in that spot ? Makes absolutely 0 sense to raise the flop and to barrel on the turn. Especially when a bunch of draws got there.

35:40ish the 2nd barrel with 22 again makes no sense. It's way too thin to value bet and you're never gonna push him off neither a better hand nor a draw. not with that smallish bet anyway.

Why are you minraising the BTN 150BBs deep ? If anything you should be raising bigger (although that's not necessary) not smaller.

40:00 I don't like your raise with 39s. It's a garbage hand and you already know from previous history that he's limp/calling a lot. No reason to bloat the pot with trash OOP against someone who does't like to fold.

44:00 I prefer betting the turn checking back the river to get value/protect your hand from his pair+ lonely spade hands and he might decide to call again with just a worse pair. Your line is ok too though since you do have a spade. I also disliked your reasoning for betting big on the river to betting small. A bigger bet does not look bluffy because there are no hands you could be bluffing with on that river. Much better to bet like 1/2 pot and hope he calls with a 5x or smth.

45:20 Trying to get better aces to fold? You are aware that's only 2 hands, right? The only reason to bet AT is to possibly get value from his draws but I don't like that because he has a ton of outs with almost all his pair outs being live as well.

So that's my little insight on the more interesting spots, enjoy or flame away I guess if you disagree with me

[no eff eks]

Originally Posted by Qgel

So that's my little insight on the more interesting spots, enjoy or flame away I guess if you disagree with me

You suck at poker obviously and should never again give anyone any advice ever.

One easy response... The reason I called the second guy a tag-fish is because that's what he is. He was playing very tight, and very aggressively. Obviously he played waaaay too tight, and his aggression was seriously misplaced usually, but that's why I add the "fish" part. The first guy was a tag, the second a tag-fish.... dunno, seems pretty straight forward to me. Regular fish aren't tight, they aren't aggressive, and they are an even better spot than the weak/tight guy.

Thanks for watching, I'm out the door like right now so I can't really respond now since you gave such great feedback, but I'll definitely take a look at these spots when I get back next week (probably monday, maybe tuesday, maybe sunday night).

[Qgel]

Well I just cant flip my tongue to even relate anyone, who's limping his button so much, to a tag. Well at least we agree about the "fish" part.

And I feel kinda stupid but I can't decide whether this

"You suck at poker obviously and should never again give anyone any advice ever. "

Was sarcasm or not

[given1982]

The QT hand at the beginning is obv played fine, but I would have quit villain before the hand ever even played out. 11 hands and no flops? You can find so much better spots than that at 20NL on Cake.

You say the villain is competent, but then you ponder minraising your trash on the button and 3x raising your good hands. I don't think it will take very long for him to catch on to that.

30:45 - You've been running this guy over so bad, I don't see any reason to cbet 56s on QT6r in position. You say you think he's going to fold overs to your pair, but everyone has his breaking point--at some point he's going to get fed up. It felt to me like it was coming soon, and he has really poured on the aggression (relatively speaking) starting with his c/r on this flop.

I think you mostly played well, as usual. My only real criticism is about sensitivity to gameflow. There was one point where the first villain had opened 5 or 6 buttons in a row (and had 3bet you at least once from the bb during that timeframe) and you were talking about how tight his button-opening range was. Also, although you eventually adjusted to the second villain going on monkey tilt, I think that you could have done it sooner.

[no eff eks]

Originally Posted by Qgel

And I feel kinda stupid but I can't decide whether this

"You suck at poker obviously and should never again give anyone any advice ever. "

Was sarcasm or not

Definitely a joke. I really do appreciate people watching and commenting on the vids I make, regardless of whether or not they think I played well.

Still haven't had a chance to watch the video so I can talk about the hands in question, but I'll probably get that posted sometime tomorrow in the early afternoon.

[no eff eks]

Originally Posted by Qgel

On the QT hand in the beginning the CRAI on the river is pure spew and it's not even close. I am trying to think of a good reason for that play and I can't think of a single one. None. Maybe to push him off a split but I doubt anyone's folding a Q in that spot.

I can only think you haven't played much HU when you say this. The only interesting thing about my line to me was that I slow played a fairly huge hand for 3 streets instead of playing it more aggressively. I'm really really surprised that you'd think stacking off with Qx on a JJJQx board (when x < Q) is not super standard stuff.

I guess just to explain why I think it's a standard stack off... It's mostly because Qx is miles ahead of his range, even for 3-barreling. The other reason (which I think I mention during the hand, not sure though), is that I've massively under-repped my hand. To a thinking TAG at these stakes my hand looks a ton like Ax or a very small pair that is just begging him to let me get to showdown.

I'm not really expecting him to call my crai on the river all that often, but his range includes so much air that I think the best way to get any value is to check and let him bluff. He seemed aggressive enough at the time that I figured this was the most +EV line. I would never consider not trying to get all the money in the middle though.

You should really try to not 3bet light on your 1st 3bet.

I agree.

At this point it should be absolutely clear to the villain that I'm going to have a wide 3bet range. The problem with trying to exploit this is that even a wide 3bet range is waaaay ahead of this guy's button opening range. Even K-high is ahead of his range here - although a 3bet does turn it into a bluff. Hope that makes sense I'm a little groggy (stoned).

07:40 Should be a standard cbet. I mean you even pointed out that his range is broadways and pocket pairs, so why not get him to fold out broadways? He might float but we don't know that.

That's the reason I don't really want to cbet. Just considering game flow and the villains other tendencies I felt he wasn't going to just roll over for me even with marginal hands.

I don't think a c-bet is bad at all, and would be cbetting myself most of the time. In this spot though I don't think I'm giving up much, if any, EV by just handing him the pot.

09:00 You confused me with your commentary on your reasoning for 3betting but anyway I think it's better to flat 88 because it's gonna be very hard to play them in a 3bet pot OOP whereas in a raised pot you can get to showdown more easily and have the best hand more often than not.

My commentary is kind of hard to follow on this one sorry... I'm usually going to just call w/88 OOP, but that's when I'm playing against somebody that's raising/limping a ton of buttons. This guy had tightened up considerably lately (which was in contrast to his style right away when he was potting ~100% from the button preflop), so 88 isn't doing all that well against his range.

So if he's got a range of say 22+/A2+/all broadway hands/suited connectors/strong unsuited connectors, I'm going to run into the same kind of problem post flop that I do with 33 where it's impossible to get value but easy to get blown off the pot when we're ahead, and tough to not pay off a couple bets when behind.

In a situation like this I'd rather just 3bet preflop in order to take his 3bb uncontested from all but the top of his range. If he calls I'm not looking to play a huge pot unless I get an amazing flop.

Hope that makes sense. That's just my reasoning anyway, which I did a very poor job of explaining in the video.

13:13 whoa your plan was to raise/fold 77 on the flop? That is just wrong imo. you have to either call because you think he will barrel off with airballs, raise/call for protection and hoping he's on a draw or to just fold because he's showing a lot of strength, especially for cbetting that board.

Of course I'm folding to a 3bet. This player is not 3bet bluffing me here and his 3bet value range has us absolutely destroyed. I want him to call or fold.

I explained why I don't like just calling his bet in the video, and I stand by that. Calling OOP with this hand on this kind of board is just not good.

28:06 Nothing big but I disliked the fact that you changed your cbet sizing for when you hit TP.

Has a lot more to do with the board texture and the villain's range than my own hand strength. I'd make the same bet size with middle pair or other middling type hands.

34-35 mins in the J7o hand. I hate your play the whole way except for the preflop raise. You PUT him on a stronger hand than yours and still try to raise and barrel him off ?! Why would you ever expect this guy to fold a hand better than yours in that spot ? Makes absolutely 0 sense to raise the flop and to barrel on the turn. Especially when a bunch of draws got there.

Yeah, this one was kinda strange. My reasoning in the video made absolutely no sense to me now, although I actually don't hate my line.

His flop bet is just weak -- I raise him because he's weak but I've also got a really marginal hand. I don't want to have to call him down, and this guy really seems like the type who will just mindlessly 1/2-pot it every street if he thinks he might be ahead. I like the turn bet because the board just got really scary and he's going to now fold lots of hands that actually beat me. River is a standard check/give up spot.

35:40ish the 2nd barrel with 22 again makes no sense. It's way too thin to value bet and you're never gonna push him off neither a better hand nor a draw. not with that smallish bet anyway.

Yeah, that was really bad.

Why are you minraising the BTN 150BBs deep ? If anything you should be raising bigger (although that's not necessary) not smaller.

Because this guy keeps folding and folding. Like I said in the video, I'm only min-raising hands that I'm not raising with for value. This is especially effective when the villain doesn't seem to change his call/raise range based on your bet sizing preflop.

40:00 I don't like your raise with 39s. It's a garbage hand and you already know from previous history that he's limp/calling a lot. No reason to bloat the pot with trash OOP against someone who does't like to fold.

He's not limp/calling a lot. I'm not sure what you mean. I'm raising it because I don't want to play this hand OOP, but I can take it down preflop easily.

44:00 I prefer betting the turn checking back the river to get value/protect your hand from his pair+ lonely spade hands and he might decide to call again with just a worse pair. Your line is ok too though since you do have a spade. I also disliked your reasoning for betting big on the river to betting small. A bigger bet does not look bluffy because there are no hands you could be bluffing with on that river. Much better to bet like 1/2 pot and hope he calls with a 5x or smth.

I agree. Totally screwed that hand up.

45:20 Trying to get better aces to fold? You are aware that's only 2 hands, right? The only reason to bet AT is to possibly get value from his draws but I don't like that because he has a ton of outs with almost all his pair outs being live as well.

Yeah, it's only 2-hands -- but this guy has been so tight preflop and AQ/AK actually make up a lot of his range. Firstly because his range is extremely tight to begin with, but also because other broadway hands have hit this board somehow and wouldn't be checking.

Other hands he'll show up with are small pairs that just want to show down, but won't stand up to two streets of aggression.

Pretty standard spot to turn that hand into a bluff I think. Too much of his range that beats us but will fold should I bet.
=============

Thanks a lot for your thoughts... I'm obviously stubborn about changing how I play, but it's really great to get other's opinions of how you play (beyond those of Adam and his legion of guest-accounts telling me I suck over and over).

[no eff eks]

Originally Posted by given1982

I would have quit villain before the hand ever even played out. 11 hands and no flops? You can find so much better spots than that at 20NL on Cake.

I wasn't necessarily looking for the best spot (and I think I mentioned later that people who are regs in those games shouldn't play somebody like him). Mostly just trying to make an interesting video, and I do feel I'm +EV against that player anyway.

You say the villain is competent, but then you ponder minraising your trash on the button and 3x raising your good hands. I don't think it will take very long for him to catch on to that.

If he figures it out you adjust to it... why not take advantage of if while you can though?

30:45 - You've been running this guy over so bad, I don't see any reason to cbet 56s on QT6r in position. You say you think he's going to fold overs to your pair, but everyone has his breaking point--at some point he's going to get fed up. It felt to me like it was coming soon, and he has really poured on the aggression (relatively speaking) starting with his c/r on this flop.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Anyway my reason for cbetting (without listening to what I said in the video) is that I've usually got the best of it, but things will be awkward as hell no matter what the turn/river bring. I just want to take the pot right now which is obviously more +EV than playing passively and hoping my hand holds.

At that point I didn't really see any reason to think he was tilting. Sure, he'd been a little aggressive lately, but even nits pick up big hands a few times in a row sometimes.

I think you mostly played well, as usual. My only real criticism is about sensitivity to gameflow. There was one point where the first villain had opened 5 or 6 buttons in a row (and had 3bet you at least once from the bb during that timeframe) and you were talking about how tight his button-opening range was.

That's pretty funny, but it's something I probably wouldn't miss if I weren't trying to explain my thought process as I played.
============

Thanks for watching, always enjoy getting your opinion on things.

[Qgel]

Sorry for responding so late but anyway I wanted to elaborate

Originally Posted by no eff eks

I can only think you haven't played much HU when you say this. The only interesting thing about my line to me was that I slow played a fairly huge hand for 3 streets instead of playing it more aggressively. I'm really really surprised that you'd think stacking off with Qx on a JJJQx board (when x < Q) is not super standard stuff.

I guess just to explain why I think it's a standard stack off... It's mostly because Qx is miles ahead of his range, even for 3-barreling. The other reason (which I think I mention during the hand, not sure though), is that I've massively under-repped my hand. To a thinking TAG at these stakes my hand looks a ton like Ax or a very small pair that is just begging him to let me get to showdown.

I'm not really expecting him to call my crai on the river all that often, but his range includes so much air that I think the best way to get any value is to check and let him bluff. He seemed aggressive enough at the time that I figured this was the most +EV line. I would never consider not trying to get all the money in the middle though.

Don't know what you're trying to say by questioning my HU experience but that's totally not the point in this hand. Just for the record I played up to 100NL HU and did quite well.

Your play was totally standard till the river and that's where I disagree with your line. I think C/calling is the standard (best?) line here and not CRAI. It's all about hand reading and putting the pieces together. Tell me this: what worse hands is villain 3barreling and then calling it off on the river? Maybe I'm just that stupid but I can't think of a single 1. I think villain's line is completely consistent with either Qx/KK/AA/Jx or some totally random maniacal crazy uber 3 street bluff which is something you see hardly ever (although it seems that you see it all the time since you expect to see air here a lot..?).

OK 1 more:

13:13

Of course I'm folding to a 3bet. This player is not 3bet bluffing me here and his 3bet value range has us absolutely destroyed. I want him to call or fold.

I explained why I don't like just calling his bet in the video, and I stand by that. Calling OOP with this hand on this kind of board is just not good.

I can't believe how stubborn you are Your line is just gross and you don't wanna admit it. Calling is what I would consider the best line and wtf you said "calling OOP" but we're IP.

OK, here goes the convincing train:

The first reason why you want to call and not raise is to not get blown off your hand when he 3bet shoves his flush draw against which you have like 50% equity if not more.
Secondly, if he doesn't have anything he will most likely give up on the turn and put you in control of the hand where you can pot control/bet for protection etc.
Thirdly, you have quite a bit of backdoor equity which doubles your chances of winning if you are behind (yes, it's still not amazing but good to know) That means you don't mind seeing a turn card.

The worst thing about your raise is that it is mostly for information and I guess somewhat to push him off his equity with 2 overcards and that's it. And even then you could get almost the same information by calling and seeing what he does on the turn which would save you like 25BBs. He is never calling you with worse here on the flop but he might 3bet worse in which case you're owning yourself with this raise pretty badly.